I'm not so sure where RAW stands on such things ...

What is visible, when is it visible and is it optional???

Los, spotting distance, night fight, shooting through stealth types, where do you stand?

LoS for non-vehicle units and for walkers would be any target unit in a 360° area that the unit can "see". We use a laser pointer to determine what the firer could draw a LoS to. This follows the Shooting Sequence on page 15, "Pick one of your units, check its line of sight and choose a target for it." LoS for immobilized walkers and for vehicles would follow thier respective rules.
As for spotting distance, it goes to infinity. My model can "see" a target from one side of the board to the other. Whether it can shoot at the target depends on the range of the weapon and on whether night fighting rules or other rules which reduce a weapon's range (like the Dark Eldar Night Shields) are in effect at the time.
As for seeing and/or shooting through a stealth unit, the stealth rules just limit the spotting distance for weapons, don't they? The unit itself isn't invisible and would still block LoS to models behind it as any normal unit would.
Is there something specific you're looking for here Ruffian?

Stealth just increases cover saves I think TW.

I know, but I thought he was talking about Tau stealth suits or similar.
He's asking about visibility and stealth increasing cover saves doesn't affect LoS.
This almost sounds like going back to the chaos dreadnaught 'fire frenzy' thing again.

I thought he was talking about shooting through harlequins you can't see & whther they give a cover save if you don't know they're there. Their rules are a bit 'obscure'.

All the 'theres' and a pun - I'm going for a lie down! And a biscuit!

timewizard wrote:This almost sounds like going back to the chaos dreadnaught 'fire frenzy' thing again.

Sort of, but that's because its still unresolved.

Actually this about death company!!!

Got something specific for me??

Models on the table are still there, regardless of special rules giving them cloaking abilities or stealth or whatever for when you target them directly. Unless a rule specifically tells you to ignore them for the purposes of LOS to other targets then you treat them like any other model (so they may partially or fully block LOS).

Think I got it! Death Company, Rage?
I know this topic can get confusing, convoluted and heated, but to me there is a difference between LoS and Visible.
You might not ba able to draw LoS to an enemy unt, but it could still be visible to you.
What might constitute the "closest visible enemy" has been debated to death, but I still believe that "visible" means exactly that.
A unit across the table in the open is "visible". It may be out of range, but it is still "visible".
An enemy behind an immobilized tank is still visible to the tank. The tank can't draw LoS to the enemy and so can't shoot at it, but the unit can still be 'seen'.
As far as 'rage', if there was a unit 12" in front of my unit, and a unit 8" behind my unit, the one behind me is the closest visible unit.
If there was a unit 4" in front of me all hidden by a wall and another 18" behind me in the open, then the one behind me is the closest visible unit.
LoS has to be established to be able to shoot at an enemy unit, but nowhere is a "visible unit" defined. So we have to fall back on common sense.
Rage says that in the movement phase you must always move towards the closest visible unit. There is nothing in the Movement rules that addresses LoS. The closest we have is the part in the 'Movement Distance' section that says "This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for enemies...". Stopping to scan the area means to me that units can certainly discern visible enemies whether the enemy is in front, behind or to the flanks of your units.
That's pretty much my take on it.
Anyone else?

On optical illusions, I read somewhere on the web that buying a commisar lord a camo cloak and attaching him to a 50 man blob squad gave them all "implied stealth" (which as we all know is like Elite stealth+extreme)

KMB, ity's true, but modelling him with such a big cloak to cover the whole squad is a right pain...

Ljundhammer wrote:KMB, ity's true, but modelling him with such a big cloak to cover the whole squad is a right pain...

He doesn't have to cover them with his cloak, he just has to tell them where the best rocks to hide behind are!

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover
save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

timewizard wrote:He doesn't have to cover them with his cloak, he just has to tell them where the best rocks to hide behind are!

Sauce of that evil little quote? I was wondering what finally flipped opinion on it.

Naw RAW to me is a fial name that DSLR Camoras yous!!!!!!!!!

Normally I get what your saying hunter, but here..I'm fairly lost.
To you (your words) people who play by the rules are vile, as vile as people who use changable lens cameras?
....
....
this confuses my brain.