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Searchlights

Discussion of rules in Warhammer 40K - use for existing rules only, for discussing new rules or changes/alternatives use the Rules Development forum

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Searchlights

Postby KInG » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:17 am

Do they illuminate the target for your own shooting?

RAW: Once you have resolved your hits the target is illuminated. This to me could mean resolve shooting entirely then illuminate, OR resolve hits first, then illuminate ready for penetration/wounds but more importantly for any cover save bonus for nightfighting.
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Re: Searchlights

Postby KInG » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:23 am

Actually I think I answered my own question. Because even if you resolve all of your shooting and then illuminate, that is still before your opponent rolls any saves. Therefore no cover bonus from night fighting?
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Re: Searchlights

Postby timewizard » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:25 pm

In order to resolve your shooting, you choose a target, roll to hit, roll to wound, then the target makes any applicable saves and allocates any wounds.

It is after this process, when your shooting has been resolved, that you can illuminate the target with searchlights. The target is then illuminated for any other units that may fire at it. This is why you usually choose to fire with a searchlight equipped vehicle first.

The target unit, and the firing unit are illuminated until the following turn, which means that your tank will be illuminated in your opponent's turn and therefore would not benefit from any night fighting cover bonus, and would be fully visible.
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Re: Searchlights

Postby KInG » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:53 pm

ok TW, and what if the rule says resolve hits, does that make any difference or not?
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Re: Searchlights

Postby timewizard » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:32 pm

What the rule actually says, in part, is this:

Main Rules page 87 wrote:If a vehicle has a searchlight,it can,after firing all of its weapons, choose to illuminate its target with the searchlight.


So the question is, what constitutes "firing a weapon"?
Is it just choosing a target? Checking LOS? Checking range? Rolling to Hit? Rolling to Wound? Allocating....well, I think you get the point.

When you fire a weapon, you roll to hit, wound, allocate, make saves, etc. This is all part of firing the weapon. You don't stop at any point.

So you would fire all the vehicle's weapons, then, after that was complete, decide if you want to use the searchlight to illuminate the target. If you choose to do so, then it is illuminated for all other firing from other units.
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Re: Searchlights

Postby Socaddict » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:36 pm

How does that apply with a superheavy with a searchlight? Can it illuminate multiple targets?
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Re: Searchlights

Postby KInG » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:44 pm

eh, is that a troll Soc? lol
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Re: Searchlights

Postby KInG » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:46 pm

timewizard wrote:What the rule actually says, in part, is this:

Main Rules page 87 wrote:If a vehicle has a searchlight,it can,after firing all of its weapons, choose to illuminate its target with the searchlight.


So the question is, what constitutes "firing a weapon"?
Is it just choosing a target? Checking LOS? Checking range? Rolling to Hit? Rolling to Wound? Allocating....well, I think you get the point.

When you fire a weapon, you roll to hit, wound, allocate, make saves, etc. This is all part of firing the weapon. You don't stop at any point.

So you would fire all the vehicle's weapons, then, after that was complete, decide if you want to use the searchlight to illuminate the target. If you choose to do so, then it is illuminated for all other firing from other units.

this is how it worked pre 6th ed, so why the change in wording is what puzzled me.

I mean, after all, you would think the tank with the searchlight would be the one to benefit more than any other unit?
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Re: Searchlights

Postby timewizard » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:05 pm

KInG wrote:I mean, after all, you would think the tank with the searchlight would be the one to benefit more than any other unit?


Well, the tank is actually giving a benefit to the rest of the army. It's lighting up an enemy giving other units a chance to see it better and to therefore hit and destroy it.

I believe that it doesn't benefit the tank with the searchlight. If that was the way it was supposed to work, the rule would have said, "If a vehicle has a searchlight, it can, prior to firing all of its weapons, choose to illuminate its target with the searchlight."

IF the rule said this, then there would be no doubt that the firing tank with the searchlight would be able to negate the shroud and stealth rules. But since it is specific that the searchlight is used after the tank fires all it's weapons, then I think it doesn't get the benefit of an illuminated target in it's own shooting phase.

Socaddict wrote:How does that apply with a superheavy with a searchlight? Can it illuminate multiple targets?


Hmmm. Good question Soc! Even in the case of a tank with POTMS, it can fire one more weapon than normally permitted and can even fire it at a different target. So does this mean that the searchlight can illuminate 2 separate targets? I don't think that's the way it's supposed to work, but RAW could be interpreted that way.
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Re: Searchlights

Postby KInG » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:57 pm

ah I see where soc is coming from now ;)
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Re: Searchlights

Postby timewizard » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:52 pm

Ive tried to do a pretty extensive search on the use of searchlights. Unfortunately, most of the answers are based on 4th and 5th editions.

It seems pretty clear that in 6th, the searchlight is used after the vehicle has fired its weapons, so it would be after the shooting sequence is completed. I hope we can all agree on this.

Also, you would not be able to illuminate a target greater than 36" away because you could not target it in the first place.

You need not have to damage, or for that matter even hit, the target in order to illuminate it, you need only target it.

Which brings up POTMS and super-heavy tanks.

In POTMS, (page 40) "...the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting." The rules for vehicles shooting says you draw LOS from the weapons mounting and along its barrel, so the targeting is taking place from the point of view of the weapon, not necessarily from the tank itself. So what is the target unit? It is the one targeted by the weapons.

Which target then does the searchlight illuminate? Can it illuminate all of them? The searchlight rules do not help to clarify because...

(page 87) "...it can, after firing all of its weapons, choose to illuminate its target (singular) with the searchlight (singular). If it does so,it also illuminates itself. You may find it helpful to place coins,or other suitable counters, next to the units (plural) as reminders, and next to a vehicle to show it has used its searchlights (plural) this turn." {emphasis mine}

If you feel that the part after "You may find it helpful..." is mere fluff and extra useful information and not part of the rule, then the searchlight and target are singular. In that case you would only be able to illuminate one target, and the best solution in the case of multiple targets would be to allow the player to choose which target is lit up.

If however, you feel that that part is indeed part of the rules, then the searchlights can illuminate multiple targets, and therefore each and every target would be illuminated.

So as far as POTMS or super heavy tanks, can the searchlight illuminate multiple targets? It's not really clear. Though it might not make sense to be able to illuminate more than one target or unit with a searchlight, we know very well that GW's rules quite often do not make sense. This is something you would probably have to house rule or die off for. TBH though, it's not something I think would come up very often.

I hope this post has provided some illumination on the searchlight question. As it were. ;)
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Re: Searchlights

Postby KInG » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:22 am

Lol. Ok you've covered it all there. I found it very illuminating. Thx. :)
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