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[C:WH] SoB Faith Points/Martyrdom Question

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[C:WH] SoB Faith Points/Martyrdom Question

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:42 am

hi all :)

ive had C:WH for ages, but ive only just gotten round to properly reading the Acts Of Faith rules (i found out id need to buy a complete Exorcist kit to get some of the metal bits i want for my AdMech project, so i thought i may as well use the leftover pimped Rhino, which has lead me to write a hypothetical SoB Combat Patrol list... link to follow EDIT: http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php? ... opic&t=541 ), so this may all be totally n00bish, but here goes...

i want to see if ive got this right:
- work out number of Faith Points before the battle, the total forms a pool (they arent linked to the model/unit that generated them, during the battle)
- if a model/unit that generated a Faith Point dies you do not "lose" that point - it is already in the pool
- when Martyrdom occurs you get to add Faith Points to your pool equal to the number originally generated by that unit/model before the game, regardless of how many Faith Points (if any) you have already used

lets say i start a CP game with 2 units: Battle Sister Squad inc. Vet. Sister Superior & Seraphim Squad. this gives me a starting Faith Point total of 2 - so i have 2 Faith Points in my pool. lets assume the enemy gets the first turn and wipes out the Seraphim before i get a chance to use any Faith Points - Martyrdom occurs and i add 1 Faith Point to my pool, leaving me with 3 in total. the enemy then shoot the Battle Sister Squad, and manage to kill the Vet. Sister Superior (ToF etc). Martyrdom occurs again, and this now leaves me with 4 Faith Points, which the surviving Battle Sisters can use up over the course of the game.

i just want to check - is all this correct?

if so, what stops the following tactic/trick:
take a Battle Sister Squad with a "naked" Vet. Sister Superior (i.e. no extra Weapons and no Wargear to keep the cost down).
the first time the unit gets shot at and fails a Save, voluntarily remove the Vet. Sister Superior as a casualty (assuming she is within Range and LOS etc as required), giving yourself an extra Faith Point in the process.

for less than 30 pts that Vet. Sister Superior has given your army 2 Faith Points (which can be used by other - more powerful - units). the only downside i can see is that you lower the squad's Ld back to its basic level (whish isnt bad anyway), and they lose the extra Attack in CC (both of which can be mitigated using an IC). am i missing something?

this seems perfectly legal, and reminds me of Nid players killing off their Broodlords so his Retinue can Fleet, or Eldar players killing off their Guardian Heavy Weapon Crews (under the old codex) for the same reason.

so what do you think? :?:

cheers :)

~ Tim
Last edited by LordMalekTheRedKnight on Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby killmaimburn » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:05 pm

I get lost on these, I just go on trust, (by the way our WH player uses mars\old whirlwinds for exorcists) hopefully the patriot or an another can enlighten us.
But just to point out naked cannonness with bolter behind gaurd for the better than rites of battle boost, and the martyrd jump pack heroine for uber pointage, are kind of old tricks (in fact I think on the first page of the withchunter tactica a mod pips up to just say "martryed cannonesss all the rest is bunk" or similar.
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Postby ThePatriot » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:22 pm

It's perfectly legal for you to sacrifice your VSS in a Battle Sister's squad. I use Acts of Faith mainly on my canoness and will martyr a VSS in a BSS if I'm running low on faith points.

Killing Seraphim can be a real pain in the butt if you set them up just right. For the points you spend on them it's a waste to martyr them intentionally since they're far more useful in assaulting other units and providing a screen for your jump pack equipped canoness.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:35 pm

cheers for the replies guys. :)

ThePatriot wrote:It's perfectly legal for you to sacrifice your VSS in a Battle Sister's squad. I use Acts of Faith mainly on my canoness and will martyr a VSS in a BSS if I'm running low on faith points.

thanks - i thought it would be OK.

just to double check though, you can get the VSS's FP "back" without losing it first (due to her dying), and without even expending it first (to use an AoF)? i suppose what im asking is if you dont have to wait until your FP total has dropped below its starting level in order to benefit from Martyrdom.

(i dont think you do - it seems OK for your Faith Points to go up before they go down, but i just want to be sure)

ThePatriot wrote:Killing Seraphim can be a real pain in the butt if you set them up just right. For the points you spend on them it's a waste to martyr them intentionally

oh yeah, i realise that - i wasnt planning on doing it intentionally when it came to the Seraphim, i was just using them to further the example.

cheers :)

~ Tim
p.s. could you take a look at my Combat Patrol list thread (link now added to OP) and let me know there what you think? thanks!
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Postby ThePatriot » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:47 pm

The faith points the VSS generates is added to the pool and if it isn't used when she dies it stays in the pool plus adds one for her death.

PS: I replied to your CP list. ;)
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Postby Culven » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:42 pm

I'm not terribly familiar with the SoB rules, but I thought, at least for some units, the Veteran Sister was needed to keep the unit Faithful and able to use the Faith Points. If you Martyr all af the Sisters who allow you to use Faith Points, then having a huge supply of them is rather, er...pointless. Sorry, the pun was not intentional.
Last edited by Culven on Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:55 pm

Culven wrote:I'm not terribly familiar with the SoB rules, but I thought, at least for some units, the Veteran Sister was needed to keep the unit Faithful and able to use the Faith Points.

ooh i hadnt thought of that! 8O

looking at it again, the BSS would stop being able to use AoF after the end of the Phase in which the VSS was removed (the Seraphim would be able to use them right up to the point at which they are wiped out, however).

so i suppose that^ is the downside to voluntary Martyrdom: the army gets +1FP, but the unit cant use AoF anymore (which is a bigger deal the smaller the game).

hmm... that changes things a bit: once the BSS VSS dies, only the Seraphim would be able to use the FPs from then on. could still be useful, but not as great (or as flexible) as i first thought.

maybe if the Seraphim are going to be facing lots of Power Weapons or MEQs it might be worth it (for extra chances to use Spirit of the Martyr or Divine Guidance), but it wont help the BSS... maybe best leave it until they get off a Divine Guidance Bolter volley first...

cheers Culven, i would have missed that otherwise. :oops:

~ Tim
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Postby Angelwing » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:48 pm

Yep, your reading of the rules is correct tim.
Yes, killing off your vet sister renders the unit unable to use acts of faith, but if you need the boost for seraphim, cannoness etc it can be useful.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:54 pm

Angelwing wrote:Yep, your reading of the rules is correct tim.
Yes, killing off your vet sister renders the unit unable to use acts of faith, but if you need the boost for seraphim, cannoness etc it can be useful.

thanks for the confirmation, Angelwing. :)

would you mind checking out my other SoB thread?

cheers

~ Tim
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Postby electricblooz » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:10 pm

ThePatriot wrote:The faith points the VSS generates is added to the pool and if it isn't used when she dies it stays in the pool plus adds one for her death.

PS: I replied to your CP list. ;)


I believe your incorrect on one point - I seem to remember reading that you can never gain more Faith than the amount with which you began the match ( at least that's the way I always played my SoB's....
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Postby Angelwing » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:43 am

electricblooz wrote:I believe your incorrect on one point - I seem to remember reading that you can never gain more Faith than the amount with which you began the match ( at least that's the way I always played my SoB's....


my codex says the faith points are added back to the faith point total.
It is a first print run though.
Nothing about that in the FAQ.

Can you remember where you read it?
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Postby Spack » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:57 am

I've just checked my 1st printing codex, and on page 18 under Martyrdom it even states "These acts of matyrdom thus increase the total number of Faith Points available to the army as the game goes on" which seems to imply that it's possible to have more Faith Points than you start the game with. It also states that when the character dies their Faith Point contribution is added back to the Faith Point total - there is nothing in the section stating that you cannot increase the total past the initial value, or that "added back" only applies to Faith Points that have been used.
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Postby fyrebyrd » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:29 pm

electricblooz wrote:I believe your incorrect on one point - I seem to remember reading that you can never gain more Faith than the amount with which you began the match ( at least that's the way I always played my SoB's....


There isn't anything definitive in the codex to keep the faith point pool from going higher than what you had when you started your battle. However martyring your VSS first seems to be suicidal. I wouldn't do it.
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Postby electricblooz » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:50 pm

fyrebyrd wrote:
electricblooz wrote:I believe your incorrect on one point - I seem to remember reading that you can never gain more Faith than the amount with which you began the match ( at least that's the way I always played my SoB's....


There isn't anything definitive in the codex to keep the faith point pool from going higher than what you had when you started your battle. However martyring your VSS first seems to be suicidal. I wouldn't do it.


I must have picked it up from a tourney FAQ then....
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