You shot me and stunned me! Damn you. I'll get my revenge though by turning my best armour at you! Ha! How do you like that?

So... I think it's possible to pivot on the spot even when stunned as brought up here: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164215

I never even thought about it. I just assumed you couldn't move.

I'm assuming this doesn't apply to walkers (as they move differently, like infantry, and do their "pivoting" in the shooting phase)?

mattjgilbert wrote:I never even thought about it. I just assumed you couldn't move.

me neither. all though it does seem legal. (in fact, there are 2 places where it says Immobilised Vehicles cant pivot, and it doesnt say the same about Stunned Vehicles in either)

mattjgilbert wrote:I'm assuming this doesn't apply to walkers (as they move differently, like infantry, and do their "pivoting" in the shooting phase)?

the Walker rules say they pivot in the Shooting phase when they are about to shoot, so they wont be able to do that when Stunned. however, they also seem to imply that Walkers can also change facing when moving (warning us that after pivoting to shoot we will probably keep the same facing until our next Movement phase), despite Walkers moving like Infantry.

looking at the rules for Turning Infantry, it seems that while it doesnt count against your movement allowance, it is something done whilst moving. therefore a Stunned Walker wont be able to turn in either the Shooting or Movement Phases.

interesting: i would have thought that a Stunned walker would be able to turn more easily than another Stunned Vehicle...

cheers

~ Tim

I guess with stunned you stagger around a bit, turn around and blink your eyes a lot
The walkers pivoting bit is strange, they wrote a full paragraph that basically says they can still pivot in the shooting phase (it baffled king who pulled me up on pivoting in the shooting phase twice )..I can only think of it being GW trying to rules lawyer and ending up making the more simple reading of it more complex
p66 on fire points, p62 on smoke
Our lot still maintain that smoked="the vehicle may not fire any of its weapons" means that passengers may not either- I believe current thought is that it is reinforced by the effects on passengers as listed by sons of russ p 67 Effect of Damage Results on Passengers bit.
Other bits- Razorback has no firepoints to balance its fire output,Chaos faq now allows 2 passengers to shoot again, may only move up to 6"s and shoot now (which I think is a slight change- didn't it used to be less than 12?)
views? I know that Lord M is all for smoked guys shooting through the fog..
A) has his view changed at all in 5th
B) What do the rest of you think on that one.

killmaimburn wrote:views? I know that Lord M is all for smoked guys shooting through the fog..
A) has his view changed at all in 5th
B) What do the rest of you think on that one.

the smoke launcher rules only prevent "the vehicle" from firing "its weapons".

the passanger rules only say they cannot fire if the vehicle is Stunned or Shaken, or if it moved at Cruising Speed - no mention of Smoke Launchers. the passangers count asmoving if the Vehicle moves, and check LOS from the fire points - however, Smoke doesnt block LOS.

even if the passangers were firing some of the Vehicles weapons (Chimera Lasguns etc), its still the passangers and not "the Vehicle" firing them.

so this is one 4th ed rule that didnt get changed back to 3rd ed.

~ Tim

Also, smoke doesn't have to actually mean real smoke. It could be any kind of ECM suite or disruption ability which doesn't have to affect the passengers.

Hummm!
If its actually "Smoke", I reckon they would have a problem getting a clear shot at an enemy but then again maybe the 40K "tech" Scope /Heat reading sights would allow it.

Barry H.

i know its potentially a bit silly that the smoke stops the vehicle firing but doesnt stop the passangers firing out of the Vehicle (unless they are firing from a top hatch and the smoke cloud doesnt go above the sides of the hull), but then again smoke providing cover saves can be just as silly (especially when you consider weapons that dont need LOS, or those that scatter from their intended target onto the vehicle and are still stopped by a smoke cloud).

its all just game mechanics.

~ Tim

plus if the "smoke" was really that localised, you'd know exactly where the vehicle was to pick it out!

I think you miss an important aspect of smoke in it's particulate nature. Smoke is particles suspended in a gasseous media. Brownian motion indictates that the particles themselves get knocked about and therefore aquire some of the kinetic energy of the particles striking them. By the law of conservation of energy (more a guideline than a law in the 40K universe I concede) the particle doing the striking looses some of its energy and would thus be slowed down. The greater the particle density (the thicker the smoke) the greater the ablative effect. So with thick enough smoke you could even stop bullets.

It is clear from the cover save afforded by smoke launchers that the smoke that is about as dense as say.. a wall?

Mind you since the Catachans armour muscle shirt offers a 5+ save, we are clearly dealing with some wussy guns or hard core materials here.

I'll get me coat.

Maybe Catachan Launchers could be employed when you don't have enough points for real smoke launchers. A true IG meat shield... just hurl a squad of crack jungle fighters at the offending projectile.

I'll get me flak jacket.

mattjgilbert wrote:Maybe Catachan Launchers could be employed when you don't have enough points for real smoke launchers. A true IG meat shield... just hurl a squad of crack jungle fighters at the offending projectile.

actually...

I wrote:Adeptus Mechanicus Vehicle Upgrades:
(upgrades with a * cannot be taken by Walkers)
- Tech Cult Choir*

Tech Cult Choir
Cultists surround the Vehicle, chanting and praying to its Machine Spirits. When the vehicle comes under fire members of the Choir will sacrifice themselves, acting as human shields.
(D3+3 Cultists)
If a Penetrating Hit is scored against the Vehicle while it is in the open, make an Obscured Target roll for the cultists. If successfully the hit is downgraded to Glancing and one model is removed from the Choir as a casualty. Once all the cultists have been removed, this ability is lost.
The cultist models cannot be shot or charged etc - they have no statline, merely acting as markers ingame. However, if the vehicle is charged, it is assumed the choir is cut down by the enemy as they advance, and they are all removed from play. The Choir has no effect once the Vehicle has been destroyed.

~ Tim

Actually Matt, you might not be far off, do you recall..

....a crack commando team jailed for a crime they did not commit....

Now the A-Team looked like they were a jungle unit and whenever they got envolved in a fire fight, no bullets hit anyone ever.

Can we site that as primary source?

Oh wait though, losts of vehicles still got trashed, so maybe it's not quite such a good precident.

So the A-Team take up an Elite choice I take it? If equipped with Jump packs, they get a "handily placed matress" save against failed dangerous terrain tests.

i got confused by this thread... so can vehicles move/pivot, or anything when stunned, in the shooting phase?

and if anything is different for walkers that are stunned or immobilised, what is it?

KInG wrote:i got confused by this thread... so can vehicles move/pivot, or anything when stunned, in the shooting phase?

maybe im just missing it, but i cant see anything that lets (non-walker) Vehicles pivot when shooting anymore.

they can do so in the Movement Phase, and it seems this is still possible when Stunned.

KInG wrote:and if anything is different for walkers that are stunned or immobilised, what is it?

Immobilised Vehicles cant turn at all.
Stunned Walkers cant turn in the Movement Phase (as its done as you move, and they cant move) and cant do so in the Shooting phase either (as its done as you shoot, and they cant shoot).

~ Tim