Transport measuring passengers prevents disembarking HALP!!

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:03 pm

Or a loophole to the loophole of the loophole.
I was lurking in the DW thread when this came up
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost. ... count=2942
Quick summary

My mate tells me that you can't because in order for an IC to leave a unit it needs to move more than 2" away from the unit he is in. If a transport moves, the character can't move more than 2" out of the vehicle (his unit) meaning that he can't leave it.

My rather flimsy and fail answer

The transport is not his unit(although i guess the embarked unit is measured to from the hull hmmm).He is just onboard.(think of other armies that have fire points, the vehicle can shoot at one target, whilst the *embarked unit* may fire at another,If it shoots at one target you may assualt a completely different one)
Rulebook FAQ "Q. Must passengers fire at the same target that their vehicle is firing at?
A. No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire at a different target."

Top right p67 when you get home is a big chunk of it.. you do have to have the (disembarked) infantry squad and the (disembarked) IC more than 2 inchs apart (or one party left inside the LR "while the others remain onboard") if you wish for them to split.
If its a landraider use different doors and angle your approach . If its a drop pod just deploying 2" different sides should put you 4"s apart (although I'm not sure why DW would want to do that).

*super silly* angle of it .. p48 says you "cannot" join vehicles MCs etc.. It then says if you "cannot" join a unit (same page linguistically classifys vehicles as "units" in case anyone needed a reminder), you must stay more than 2"s from it.. So the only time you may go near a friendly vehicle is if you are going to (expliticitly permitted) embark? (and how about ending their movement phase having disembarked but not moved off... brain+game breaks, I think your gonna need a bigger rules lawyer on that.. ..still I've only given it 3 minutes thought so far)

But surely there is a better answer.. his question on 2 points remains valid..
1) if a unit is onboard and an IC can only disembark (not move as well).. using the hull measurement for where the embarked unit is, they will always be within 2"s (bad) p67 top right has some implied permissions in it- but they seem to be through constructive results rather than actuall permissions..
2) If an IC cannot join a vehicle, he cannot be within 2"s of it ever without declaring he is embarking.. and how does he disembark?
I'm not too proud.. if I totally bodged up my answer will someone put something correct in there

erm this is kind of a follow up point to this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3217&p=31986#p31986 but note where Tim cites the rulebook "but it does work" I cite.. that both parties are still within 2" (the reminded rule on p67)

LordMalekTheRedKnight · by **LordMalekTheRedKnight** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:17 pm

You cant have a unit partially embarked, so models outside the vehicle cant be part of the unit inside the vehicle. Also, ICs can disembark alone as a method of leaving the unit.

Does that help? (if not, I can dig through the book)

~ Tim

timewizard · by **timewizard** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:29 pm

To build on what Tim said...

1) The IC or the unit can disembark independent of the other, the other unit remaining in the transport. IF they disembark together and wish to be separate, then they must be more than 2" from each other. There is no such restriction in the rules if one or the other disembarks alone. Further, if the IC disembarks, he "...is deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle's access points..." and he is no longer in coherency with the unit embarked in the transport. I beleive this is backed up by the rule that they can disembark separately.

2) if an IC (or a unit) wishes to voluntarily embark on a transport, they do so by moving to within 2" of an access point. There is nothing in the rules that states that a unit moving within those 2" must embark. If I can place a unit next to a transport vehicle to give them cover without embarking onto the transport, then I see nothing that would disallow an IC from doing the same thing.

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:30 pm

They can disembark alone to leave a unit (as you say in previous thread and I agree).
The problem is when "cant be part of the unit inside the vehicle" 'can't means must stay more than 2" away from the hull.. so how does it do that whilst also not disembarking further than allowed.
I'm constructing the problem....heres an ABC
I must not be within 3 miles of my Ex.
I must catch a train.
My Ex is already on board the train.
measuring to or from the embarked unit, using the hull, and using the *forbidden* range as stated (in the IC section) if not actively joining something you are forbidden from failing to leave.
(alot of it is the whole "what is a unit" and are models on the table in a transport always..this just seems to have them both together..in a painful knot)

ADDED LATER

TW-"then I see nothing that would disallow an IC from doing the same thing.", the IC rules, he may not be within 2" of another unit unless joining them, this includes vehicles (in the IC joining section) and thus my headache

timewizard · by **timewizard** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:36 pm

killmaimburn wrote: ADDED LATER

TW-"then I see nothing that would disallow an IC from doing the same thing.", the IC rules, he may not be within 2" of another unit unless joining them, this includes vehicles (in the IC joining section) and thus my headache

The first paragrah on page 48 says that ICs ane not allowed to join vehicle squadrons and units that always consist of a single model like MCs and most vehicles. So an IC could move within 2" of any vehicle since it cannot join it, and it could move within 2" of a transport and not embark if it doesn't choose to.

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:43 pm

" If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."
If it cannot, then it must stay more than 2"s away.
Did that just feel like a kick to the crutch? because when I got, what I think I'm argueing.. my brain went all wibbly wobbly.

LordMalekTheRedKnight · by **LordMalekTheRedKnight** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:49 pm

Does it say an IC cant leave and join the same unit in the same movement phase?

~ Tim

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:50 pm

Isn't that a bit off topic, could you relate it to the question..
No i believe it doesn't forbid it hence having the ork slow dude leave and then rejoin to keep pace and not slow down his mob.

He cannot rejoin (due to rembarkation in the OP) and he is now in banned territory..

timewizard · by **timewizard** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:53 pm

killmaimburn wrote:" If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."
If it cannot, then it must stay more than 2"s away.
Did that just feel like a kick to the crutch? because when I got, what I think I'm argueing.. my brain went all wibbly wobbly.

More like a kick to the crotch! I always played that an IC can remain within 2" of a vehicle since he can't join it, but the rules clearly prohibit this.

So the IC would have to remain more than 2" away from a transport with a unit embarked in it if the IC was not embarking. But not because he would be within the 2" coherency of the embarked unit, but because he couldn't move within 2" of a unit he couldn't, or does not intend to join (the vehicle).

This makes for a few interesting conundrums.

Can any unit (except an IC) move within 2" of a friendly transport without embarking?

Can a unit with and attached IC move within 2" of a friendly transport without embarking?

This post was deleted by killmaimburn on Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:00 pm. Top

This post was deleted by killmaimburn on Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:00 pm.

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:02 pm

I just posted something but forgot about the whole "If its done, its only done in the movement phase".. which is a key part of the constructed nature of p67 working..which is really odd..

Deleted (flawed post) was as follows
"

timewizard wrote:But not because he would be within the 2" coherency of the embarked unit,

If you wish we can come back to this as a seperate point ( i did say 2 points hurt me) This one.. is about how clearly the previous thread dealt with it.
If one reads p67 in a certain way.. It doesn't at any time actually stipulate that models may remain where they are within 2"s of the embarked unit..It just says they can get out in seperates (an action).The explicit permission to remain (after that) within 2" of the other unit (to not assualt/run/ something further away from the vehilcle) may be some sort of implied proviso of it working.. as the actuall resultant rule is also kind of implied rather than directly stating "you may have a unit within 2" of another unit as long as one is classified as embarked"
but yeah 2 swords right to the gut.. and before breakfast.. made my head hurty.."

timewizard · by **timewizard** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:14 pm

Then how do the rules let this work?

An IC may not move within 2" of a unit it cannot join.

An IC disembarks within 2" of the transport's access point.

If the vehicle had moved, the IC may disembark, but may not move any further, but it has ended it's move within 2" of the transport!?!

mattjgilbert · by **mattjgilbert** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:54 pm

If RaW really does make this impossible, then common sense should over-rule RaW (and become GaP). So long as the person decalres the IC is leaving the unit and leaving the vehicle, leave it at that. A unit cannot be half and half out a vehicle so you must have 2 units and not one.

timewizard · by **timewizard** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:16 pm

Agreed, else an IC could never leave a transport that had moved.
Also GaP would have to overrule RaW with regards to unit may not move within 1" of an enemy unit. But if a unit assaults a vehicle and does not destroy it, on the next turn the vehicle is free to move away as normal, but you can't move within 1" of an enemy unit, and you are starting in base to base with the the enemy unit because they assaulted last turn....etc

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:04 am

mattjgilbert wrote: leave it at that. A unit cannot be half and half out a vehicle so you must have 2 units and not one.

But how many bits of raw do we ignore to fix the silly..
Do we say that the resultant disembarkation of a figure.. who must be sat within 2" but also cannot be sat within " "s is wrong..and therefore allow people to deploy more than 2 (from the hull and from the unit) or do we say the unit doesn't exist for movement for measuring to and from when embarked (removing the use hull for measurement) and assume that the within 2" is flexibly ignored by the disembarkation rules that don't demand that one party must continue to move away.

What I've been saying is..I know its silly.. but which bits should I be ignoring...all of it?

Could one of you helpful chaps find a way to word this brain hurt to the point that culven et al would actually be able to understand it (I'm still not sure what point I'm making unless I see matt write it out :lol: