No, not planning a one on one deathmatch

Rather interseting (argumentative) debate going on over on Dakka about this question (see here if interested).

I play Space Marines and looking specifically at Sergeant Telion;

A scout squad can replace its Scout Sergeant with him so he is not an independent character.
He has the Infiltrate, Move through Cover and Scouts special rules, and so does a Scout Squad so no problem there.
He also has the Stealth special rule, but the Scout Squad does not.
The only way for Scouts to gain Stealth is to take camo cloaks as an option.

Page 48 BRB says that when Independent characters join a unit their special rules are not conferred upon the unit unless specified.
Telion is not an independent character, he is an upgrade character and those are "...fielded as part of units from the start of the game..."

Now the Stealth USR (page 76) says "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1."
So what would happen with taking Telion?
Would he, and he alone, gain the cover save improvement?
Would he have to be alone (the rest of the scout squad destroyed) to gain the cover save?
Since he is an upgrade character and not an independent character would he confer the cover save upon the rest of the squad?

Thoughts? Arguments?

I'm not really interested in RAW on this one.

IMO only Telion gets Stealth. For the rest of the squad to get it, I'd buy cloaks for them, but not Telion.

The extent of my argument is that that is what I feel is the appropriate resolution.

I remember this one on warseer too although that was more about Telion having to pay for a cloak even though it wouldn't benefit him (by RaW).

I agree with bara.

It seems like yet more of the all encompassing special rule (ie it does what it says on the tin) vs integrated rule (it may need other stuff to function) and how the hell you tell the differance.

I don't have the codex at hand, so am going by what's been said already.

Ic rules are irrelevant, he is not a unit so he cannot have anything benefitting him alone.
= stealth is conferred upon his unit (and him if he is the lone survivor), the cloaks would not stack and are there for the squad if tellion is not selected.

ruffian4 wrote:Ic rules are irrelevant, he is not a unit so he cannot have anything benefitting him alone.
= stealth is conferred upon his unit (and him if he is the lone survivor), the cloaks would not stack and are there for the squad if tellion is not selected.

I think that's correct. I would think that Telion's stealth USR would benefit the unit of scouts until the point where Telion is removed.

@Matt, an interesting development, when you take a 4 man scout squad with a regular sergeant in army builder and give the scouts camo cloaks, army builder adds 15 to the squad. But if you take the same squad and upgrade the sergeant to Telion, the cost drops to 12.

I know there are many debates back and forth about army builder and that it's not the end-all of army lists, but I find it to be a great tool. That said, it seems the programmers presume Telion to have a camo cloak or to not need to upgrade to one due to his stealth special rule.

Apologies, I just had a look at the dex and I thought you were saying that there was a rule in Telions section that said something like "Telion and his squad ..." along the lines of shrike.
(but no, it's the usr that mentions unit).

So because he isn't an ic, he can't confer stealth, he isn't a unit unless a lone survivor, at which point he would have stealth regardless of the squads equipment.
The unit does not have stealth unless they have cloaks, which I think by raw he would be forced to buy.

Well I don't think he would have to buy a cloak to gain stealth because it is included in his special rule.

Again the problem is that he is an upgrade character and it is listed right in his special rule that he has stealth.
Would this mean that an upgrade character can confer a special rule to his unit that an independent character cannot?

I still think that unless you buy camo cloaks for the rest of the scouts that only Telion would benefit from the stealth special rule, but then how would that be handled in gameplay?

If the squad is in a ruin, would the scouts (without camo cloaks) get a 4+ cover save and Telion get a 3+?

I don't see a problem with one model in a unit getting a different save than the rest of the unit. It works for armor and invulnerable saves, so why not for cover saves?

Unless the others buy a cloak, only Telion gets stealth.

I think that's how it is intended, Matt.
There's just a (silly) RAW complication.

@Matt and Ruffian - I agree with both of you.

The confusing part is that the stealth USR says the unit improves its cover save. However, the SM codex was written after the rules (IIRC) and I guess they never thought to address this.

They don't know their own rules mate (and nor do we at times!!!) which just leaves everything in a miasma of doubt!
No-matter what they say, we will question it, that's what they deserve.
It's just not what we deserve.

Soap box off.

Can't disagree mate. Trying to get clear answers from GW is like

Personally, I would buy cloaks for the squad except Telion, and let them all get the bonus, or I would not buy any cloaks and they wouldnt get the bonus until Telion is the lone surviving squad member (although for tactical reasons I would just use the first option).

~ Tim

But wouldn't Telion get it (the cover save improvement) himself? He has the stealth USR and he can't be taken by himself, he can only be taken as an upgrade character for a scout squad.

I recall this debate on Warseer as well. From that, here is my understanding:

Telion has Stealth and without Cloaks, the squad would not. However, Stealth states that the unit's Cover Saves are improved. So, even if Telion is the only one with Stealth, the unit benefits. If Telion is removed from the unit, the unit will no longer gain the benefit of Stealth. So, buying Cloaks for the squad is insurance against losing Telion.

If one wishes to buy Cloaks, the cost is X points per model. Whether the squad is lead by Telion or a regular Sergeant, it is still a model in the unit and the points must be paid for that model. Army builder may show this differently, but then army builder is written by someone interpreting the codex, and their interpretation isn't necessarily any more valid than mine. Fortunately for me, I'm not writing a program that some people mistakenly believe is just as valid as the codex.