So we have a unit consisting of Vect and some wytches with all but one of the wytches on the near side of a defence line leaving a single wytche in base contact with the far side he defence line and vect set off slightly away from the wytche but also not in b2b with the defence line, the unit declares it's going to fire at a unit of marines about 7-9 inches away also on the near side of the defense line. Vect fires his orb (blast) and unit there pistols. Vects LoS to some of the marines is blocked by the defence line with 2 of the marines been at least 25%+ obscured from his view but are otherwise in the open, ie not in area terrain of directly behind anything. The DE do NOT declare focus fire.

My statement: Because some of the marines are obscured from vects view those models can claim a cover save from the defence line of 4+ or 2+ if I GtG. These models are also the closest to vect.

Niges statement: Because the wytche is B2B with the defence line and Vect is within 2" of him Vect does not give a cover save because he is classed as B2B with the defence line.

I have a pic but it won't let me attach it.

Vect being within 2" of the wych squad means that he is in coherency with and joined to that unit. Therefore he is a part of that unit for all purposes.

LOS is determined on a model by model basis. If a target model is obscured from LOS of a firer, then a cover save is applicable.

Main Rulebook Page 18 wrote:Determining Cover Saves
If,when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model's body (as defined on page is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save.

{emphasis mine}

And as per page 104, you are correct that the marines that are at least 25% obscured would get a 4+ cover save and since it is cover from a defense line, if they GTG they would gain +2 giving them a 2+ cover save from Vect's (or any other wyche whose LOS was 25% obscured) of 2+.

You played it correctly.

I'm sure I've read that if a model is base to base with a barricade or wall, or other similar linear terrain peice, that the terrain piece is negated for cover given to the target by any of the unit firing if the models from that unit are within 2" of the one in b2b with the wall. Or am I mixing my editions up again.

I've just looked again and still can't find it so it must have been an old rule. Ok well this raises another question. When you stand behind an ageis defence line, let's say 10 sm tactical in two rows of 5, one behind the other, so we now have to check and see if each model can see the target unit/model individually, including the onces in b2b with the wall also?..

KInG wrote: When you stand behind an ageis defence line, let's say 10 sm tactical in two rows of 5, one behind the other, so we now have to check and see if each model can see the target unit/model individually, including the onces in b2b with the wall also?..

Yes, you would still have to check LOS on a model by model basis making sure that each firing model has LOS to the target unit. Even the units in base contact with the wall have to be able to draw LOS over the wall, not through it (unless they are looking through a vision slit!) Keep in mind the following though;

Main Rules Page 18 wrote:Note the exception that, in the same way as they can trace line of sight through members of their own unit, models can always shoot through members of their own unit without conferring or receiving a cover save.

I think where you are getting confused about the defense line and walls in general, is how they are treated in an assault.

Main Rules Page 102 - 'Barricades and Walls' wrote:For the purposes of charge moves, models that are both in base contact with a barricade and within 2" of each other are treated as being in base contact. Despite the models on either side not literally being in base contact,the combatants fight nonetheless.

In this instance, the walls are essentially ignored, but again this is only for assaults. In the Shooting phase, terrain can and will block LOS, regardless of the target unit's or firing unit's position in base contact with it.

So do I get to go to ground for. 2+ cover save if he shoots me across his own ageis defence line?

Only if it's the aegis that is providing the cover save before you GtG

And only if at least 25% of the target is obscured from the LOS of a model in the firing unit.
Which would provide the cover that Bane was talking about.

I'd add at this point that i treat models in base to base with a defence line / barricade as having line of sight through or over it even if you have short / dynamically posed models who can't actually 'see' through it. By the same token they can be seen by the enemy in return though. it strikes be as incredibly stupid when a terrain piece designed to be defended and shot through can't be used by a model in an interesting position, eg kneeling.

Remember line of sight come from the head of a model to a body part of the enemy so if the barricade isn't obsurering the line for sight from the firers face then it's target don't gain a cover save.

Cheers all

I follow all that and a model might be able to see another's body un obscured. But the rules are it has to see all the unit un obscured to not offer a cover save. Or target only models that have a lower cover save than others.

For a man behind an ageis defence line to be able to see the whole unit clearly is very hard, even when in base to base.

Another interesting question about cover is barrage. Cover is calculated from centre of marker. What about night fighting. Does it negate stealth or shrouded granted by range during night fighting.

KInG wrote:Another interesting question about cover is barrage. Cover is calculated from centre of marker. What about night fighting. Does it negate stealth or shrouded granted by range during night fighting.

Why would it? The range from the firing unit to the target unit is measured before the shot is fired. This is the range used to determine the effect. If the range confers stealth or shrouded (or both) prior to the shot, that effect is used by the target, even if the shot scatters.

At least, I think that might be what you are asking.

Ah but barrage rules state " when working out wound allocation and if the model receives a cover save take as tho the shot comes from the hole in the centre of the blast template"

I understand that, but what difference would that make if night fighting rules are in effect?

The target unit would get a cover save measured from the center of the blast marker. If the target had the stealth or shrouded special rule, they would get that cover save bonus.

If the question is whether a shot that scatters would confer an additional rule, the answer is no. Let's say for example that the target is 22" away from the firer. Night fighting rules are in effect. The target is treated as having the stealth special rule so it gains +1 to it's cover save. The shot scatters and the center of the blast marker is now 26" away from the target unit. Do they now get the shrouded rule? No. This is because of the night fighting rule that says:

Main Rules Page 124 wrote:If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has.

So you place the marker, determine the applicable night fighting effect, if any, then roll for scatter. As normal. And yes, you would apply any cover saves as if the shot came from the center of the marker. This means that regardless of scatter, a model targeted by a barrage that was more than 12" and less than 36" from the firing unit before the scatter roll will always get a cover save.