Ok, I tried this on seer, but it was shut down.

It's about shrike and his (in)ability to grant infiltrate to "his squad."
At what point does an ic "join" a unit, when he is deployed with it?

To be fair it was shut down because this one had been (and was still) running. (as had a few others(inc murphys that went to 15 pages) ..its like the lash when it was new, it pops up and shoutys begin everytime, with more and more entrenched scaryness..your lucky the thread died before you became frankenstein trying to dodge your monster.
For what its worth UKGT has said a squad can join and infiltrate..the rest gets shouty elsewhere and I look forward to lurking reading the AOS discussion on it.

If I've understood/remembered the issues correctly, doesn't this discussion have important implications for Divination/A Word In Your Ear and whether ICs could be left exposed once the game begins?

killmaimburn wrote:To be fair it was shut down because this one had been (and was still) running.

Yep, I know, but I was trying to get the same people to adress it from a different perspective.
No-one was really bothering with it and if it could be sorted (not sure if it can be), then the whole thing goes away.

ruffian4 wrote:It's about shrike and his (in)ability to grant infiltrate to "his squad."
At what point does an ic "join" a unit, when he is deployed with it?

BRB page 48, right hand column, 1st paragraph, "Alternatively, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." So Shrike can begin the game with a unit. But at what point does the game begin?
IMO, it begins when you organize a battle. You and your opponent agree to a points limit, choose your forces, set up the battlefield, select a mission, and deploy your forces. Once you have done all this, you 'start the game'.
If you look at page 92 under infiltrators and scouts, the rules say that in the differrent types of deployment the sequence of events is still the same. You deploy your (non-reserve and non-infiltrate) forces, then you deploy the infiltrators and then move any units with the scout rule.
On pages 92 and 93 in the section detailing deployment, each one states that after the above steps have been completed you, "Start the game!".
I know it is just my take on the semantics of 'start' and 'begin' but that's how I see it. That's why I believe that the game does indeed 'begin' before it 'starts'.
Time Wizard
p.s. - In the case of Shrike, his special rules say that he and models in his squad benefit from infiltrate. Since infiltrate is used during deployment, Shrike would have to join the unit before deployment. This goes right back to the rule on page 48. You just have to make it clear to your opponent.

Ive read the ones on warseer about this (for my KOTR army) and once you filter out the people just going with their warseer idol " i completely agree with him 'swoon' "

The rule book states that ICs may begin deployment in coherency, this doesnt mean it could infiltrate (just starts within 2" of each other and then they become one).

The IC rules also give an example that, for example if Pedro Kantor attached himself to scouts, he would not gain the infiltrate rule and the scouts would loose it. Throughout the Rulebooks IC section, no mention of an ICs skills affecting the unit.

The SM codex it says "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate rule"

Now look at infiltrate.........the skill only counts before the game starts, the rulebook says an IC can deploy in coherency with a squad....doesnt say whether coherency in a DP, rhino, Infiltrate or teleport?

Now anyone who argues what the rulebook says is wrong, as a codex is an add on that supersedes it, and the codex says:

SHRIKE AND HIS SQUAD GAIN INFILTRATE!

Infiltrate doesnt allow you to appear......4 turns in?? its before turn one! I really wonder how people get this confused?

The only real arguement ive seen is " because he cant!, thats it!"

However please feel free to correct me, or maybe GW made two codexs, half with a slightly differ rule?!?!?!?

Elvis

Sorry to double post but to re-iterate: The Codex supersides the Rulebook. therfore some rules are special to a particular unit/Char

Elvis

Infiltrate doesn't just work in deployment though - units in reserve can use it to outflank.

Personally I think Shrike should be able to join and infiltrate with a unit during deployment, but yet again the writers at GW screwed up during editing. They seem to have forgotten that the 5th ed rules don't explicitly allow IC to a squad and then deploy them together - one or the other has to be on the table first for the IC to join it (as he joins during deployment by being placed in coherency with them, and when they're off the table the concept of coherency is meaningless). If the unit is on the table first then either (a) they were placed normally, not as infilitrators, Shrike can join them and there's no issue, or (b) they were placed during the infiltration step and they have infiltrate already, so Shrike can be placed with them. Otherwise the unit must be in reserve because that's the only way a non-infiltrating unit can avoid being placed during deployment - eg. it's time to put a FA unit on the table, you take assault squad "Mongo" and either put them on the table or say "these are going in reserve", there is no 3rd option.

Shrike really needs a small errata. Either it should state he can join a unit even before deployment, or it should state that he gives his unit Outflank. I'll allow my opponent to put him with a squad and infiltrate them, but I'll not necessarily be happy if that unit is a tooled up Terminator squad that has no business sneaking around in the bushes. There should be some sort of limitation, only allowing Assault and Vanguard squads seems fitting enough.

I think the game begins at the point you start determining things that can not be changed. If you want a specific point in time, it would be the very 1st dice roll, which is to see what mission you're playing. In a GT that is determined for you and the next roll also; deployment areas/type. So it would then be at the point you both roll to see who starts 1st. Simple really

Spack wrote: They seem to have forgotten that the 5th ed rules don't explicitly allow IC to a squad and then deploy them together - one or the other has to be on the table first for the IC to join it (as he joins during deployment by being placed in coherency with them, and when they're off the table the concept of coherency is meaningless).

I have to disagree with you here Spack. The rules say the IC can begin the game already with a unit by being deployed in coherency with them. {emphasis mine} It doesn't say that the IC or the unit has to be on the table first.
Deployment is when forces are placed on the table, yes. It is also the time when units with special rules (and whether or not they are using them) is declared. For instance, I can take a rhino as a dedicated transport for a tac squad. They are one unit on the FOC. When I deploy, I can choose to deploy the squad in the transport, deploy the squad and the transport seperately in 2 different areas, split the tac sqauad into 2 combat squads and deploy them and the rhino in 3 different areas. I don't have to place any part of the unit on the table to exercise those options, they are deployed on the table that way.
Same with an IC. The rules say he can be already joined with a unit, he just has to be deployed in coherency with them. So I couldn'd (for example) say that I was joining Shrike with a tac squad, infiltrate them onto the table and then place Shrike 3" away from that tac squad's nearest model. He would have to be deployed in coherency with the unit he joined.
Look at Sicarius. A tac squad that includes him can have one of 4 different special rules, one of which is infiltrate. So during deployment, I declare that tac squad alpha includes Cato and will deploy using infiltrate. Same difference. Only thing different between the two is Cato can only be attached to a tac squad, Shrike has no such limitation.
There's my take on it.

timewizard wrote:The rules say the IC can begin the game already with a unit by being deployed in coherency with them.

This is why it is important as to whether the IC is part of the unit at the start of the first turn, at some point before that, or at some other point.

timewizard wrote:Look at Sicarius. A tac squad that includes him can have one of 4 different special rules, one of which is infiltrate. So during deployment, I declare that tac squad alpha includes Cato and will deploy using infiltrate. Same difference. Only thing different between the two is Cato can only be attached to a tac squad, Shrike has no such limitation.

You may want to re-read Sicarius' rules. He doesn't need to be part of the squad, just in the same army.

Culven wrote: You may want to re-read Sicarius' rules. He doesn't need to be part of the squad, just in the same army.

Sorry Culven, quite correct, read it a bit too fast.

As with an Errata from GW, why cant they just release a documnet saying:

Can a squad attach itself to shrike and gain the total rule of infiltrate?

Yes or No,

Not a hard one GW, come on!

Elvis

I dont quite understand the poll, although I do feel I have a solid grasp of the underlying issues. Weighing in late...

timewizard wrote:BRB page 48, right hand column, 1st paragraph, "Alternatively, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." So Shrike can begin the game with a unit. But at what point does the game begin?

Well, he can begin the game joined to a unit if he can depoly within 2" of that unit (afterall, as per your quote, that is how he achieves it). i.e. he doesnt automatically get to deploy within 2" because he is going to join them - it is the other way around (he gets to join them because he deployed within 2").

Alternatively of course he can join them when being put into reserve.

As to when the game starts, each of the deployment types says (p92-93):

Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the
player that chose his deployment zone first starts
game Turn 1 with his first player turn.

This further reinforces the fact that he must deploy within 2" (during deployment) in order to be joined to them when the game starts (after deployment), and not the other way around.

As it stands, Shrike can:
- join a unit as he and it are being put into reserve, and grant them all Infiltrate allowing them to Outflank
- Infiltrate to within 2" of an Infiltrating unit (effectively Infiltrating with them)
- Infiltrate to within 2" of a non-Infiltrating unit

Although we already thrashed this out Re: Karandras, didnt we?

My money is on GW having messed up the wording, and that somewhere along the line he was going to have a Retinue (or the rule was referring to his non-Retinue Command Squad), or that he would allow a non-Infiltrating unit to actually Infiltrate onto the battlefield during deployment. Not that they would admit it, though (cross-ref my chat with JJ on DA Scoring Units )

Of course, there is that chance that this is actually RaI, in which case they still messed up the wording since they should have just given him Infiltrate and said he could join a unit in Reserves and Outflank with them (doesnt one of the IG SCs grant Outflank?), so as not to confuse people.

Oh well.

~ Tim
p.s. as to GaP... I dont really know how people "in the real world" do it. Maybe that needs its own poll.

This was from the Adepticon FAQ (which I know is not GW errata),

SM.92.02 – Q: Can Shrike join a unit before the game
and use his ‘Seen, But Remain Unseen’ ability to allow
them all to infiltrate?
A: Yes, Shrike may nominate a unit he is going to join and
together they may infiltrate [clarification].

I saw this posted on 'seer and looked it up.