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How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

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How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby killmaimburn » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:04 pm

I just about understand on a basic level the codex now, now its just a matter of working out what works.
So how should I design my army to turn up (step 1 on build procedure)

Aegis plaguebearer comms unit (+quad)..(everything else on T2 due to rerolls, costs a chunk if resilient)
or instruments and icons everywhere each unit on brings another on (cost spread has side perks of its own/e.g. overiding the table of chaos doom, meaning kairos isn't vital).

Which one and why?
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby BANE » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:24 pm

I would like to offer my help, but i am currently struggling getting a DOA BA to work, the 50% rule in 6th kills these types of armies i think.

So my vote is just start on the table
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby markb » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:29 pm

With a title like that I am having a serious Finbarr Saunders moment! Fnarr fnarr! :)
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby lostandthedamned » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:53 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Aegis plaguebearer comms unit (+quad)..(everything else on T2 due to rerolls, costs a chunk if resilient)
or instruments and icons everywhere each unit on brings another on (cost spread has side perks of its own/e.g. overiding the table of chaos doom, meaning kairos isn't vital).

Which one and why?


You can't have both quad gun and comms relay on the same Aegis.

I'm seriously considering an Icarus lascannon. With a bs5 herald a real danger to aircraft, murder for flying monstrous creatures.

The real advantage with using Instruments is flexibility. For each instrument bearing unit that turns up you get another unit of any type. What I didn't first twig
I'm basing my ideas around an 8 unit army of 1750 - 2000pts.
This would enable you to put 4 units into reserve.
A 10 man unit with instruments is 100pts, with 2 3+ shots with each bringing in 2 units (plus the chance of the 2 units entering themselves if the instrument units fail).
Really reliable.

I'm envisioning a build with a flying GD, 2 fast units with icons + a bench (bloodcrushers, seekers or flys) and a base sitter unit of Plaguebearers with herald and aegis.

In reserve 2 units of troops with instruments, though i'm tempted to make these max size with heralds for combat punch. Ideally these would match god with the fast units so the icons are perfect. Even with Only D6 scatter it'd still be risky for non-aligned troops as a 21 man unit will have a 3 ring pattern. So a scatter of 4" towards the icon (or 45 degrees either side of it) would cause a mishap. Not great odds.

The instruments could then summon something else either to overwhelm (3 units in 1 location) or elsewhere as a distraction.

In the Nurgle case the build seems clear.
Flys to reach up the board
Max Plaguebearers with instrument (still great in combat - plague banner & rust)
Beasts to overwhelm and screw any counter charges.

Khorne can get closer due to Kharnak + Bloodcrushers scouting.
Then bring in Bloodletters and a Prince - this may save the Letters from getting shot to pieces, as the prince is a big threat.

If I want a list with GUO or KoS then these would be ideal to bring in here as they'd never survive trudging up the table.

Lots to think of and try out.
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby killmaimburn » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:30 pm

markb wrote:With a title like that I am having a serious Finbarr Saunders moment! Fnarr fnarr! :)
Dagnnabit it took me 5 minutes to get that.



Ahh its like old times.. uber princes with hordes of gribbles.. It is my latd. Yeah good call on the "one of" (dohh).

But I'm just flirting with it at the mo, trying to get a feel for stuff..trying to avoid the flying MC circus that seems to be so popular.
FIRST MASHBASH list
I'm so far pondering something near mono tzeentch.. (corrupted by nurgle)

So far I got..
Kairos (his role on the chaos table and his psychic crazies) 300

17 horrors+ instrument WC3 (163) with
Herald- exalted reward (portalglyph for more scoring units) Exalted locus of conjuration +1strength, Divination default +1 tzeencth primaris ==== 125
Herald exalted reward (grimoire of awesome save unit) Level 3 primaris tzeentch + 2 div ====125

A mega turn up dump squad-413

Then a cheap squad
11Horrors (WC2) 99points

3 Screamers (start on) 75
3 Screamers (start on) 75

thats about as far as I'm convinced ..so a nice core of 962.

Counter attack for when horrors come down..I'm thinking 2 nurgle beasts (starting on) 104 (basically just because the attention seeker rule means my horrors are bodyguarded.

20 plague bearer Nurgle with instrument+ herald with FNP loci+aegis comms =330 (starting on)
(where do I get rust from??)
354 left
5 nurglings for messing with folks- 75

Unmarked level 2 Chaos sorcerer termie armour melta bombs 115
10 cultists 50
autocannon spam havoc squad 115 (to kick the butt of flyers)
Allies ====280
=====1751

4 Largish scoring squads, a chunk of control over the chaos table..Alot of everywhere going on..and I have the models from the get go, nurgle is rat based, tzeentch is skeleton based (with some actual tzeentch thrown in where necessary) I can tailor to my opponent by psychic powers, and by choosing what comes through the glyph, eg halp I need CC bloodletters, halp I need to hold bases plaguebearers etc..
I'm sucky at super heavy armour, and might need to bump the havocs to trilasscannon pred.

Liking the idea of tzeentch soulgrinder with benefit of book.. but think that too many things in the above already need it on them.
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby lostandthedamned » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:09 pm

killmaimburn wrote:(where do I get rust from??)


It's built in to them. And it's the solution to heavy armour.
Plaguebearers now auto-glance vehicles on armour rolls of 6. Combat-gauss, in other words.

20 charging is an average of 4.444 hull points, should be enough to kill anything not super heavy.
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:14 am

Faced LHs guard
Code: Select all
2 squads with an autocannon
3x3 autocannon heavy weapon squad.
5mechvets/CSSmelta vets etc= 7 ish (multilaser+heavy flamer gulp),chimeras packed with either melta or plas.
2 Vendettas one with special weapon squad one (all grenade launchers) with basic squad.

Corners, Fast scoring random value objectives.

>So much bookkeeping with demons.
Kairos gets +2str soulblaze/Precognition and Puppet master/FNP it will not die. (so I’m only ever using one head.
Herald 1 already sorted/both primaries.
Herald 2-rolls crap in the end gets both primaries (div and change)+ 4++ invulnerable.
Allied Sorceror gets invisibility (yum) and Uhmmm?? (nice).

LH wins both roll offs, not night fight.
I fail to seize.
His first shooting doesn’t do much, kills 2 screamers (I remember half way through the turn that rerolling1s works for cover).

My turn screamers zoom forwards,nurgle beasts zoom(coverhugging).havocs shoot..plaguebearers sit at back (but do activate/chuck the glyph (LH let me swap it to him just prior to game start).. Nurglings have nothing to do.due to the ever familiar castle block of chimeras. Chaos table roll is a bombardment that takes out one of his heavy autocannon squads (NICE)

His turn shooting an invisible screamer squad in cover is a pain..he absolutely refuses to charge.. so at the end of everything I have 1left.He’s shooting a lot at the sorcerer and cultists.IIRC the sorcerer dies that turn (but cultists pass the test.)

My turn 2 psychic powers psychic, powers everywhere!!! Comms and instrument make sure everything turns up.. turns ut horrors with rerolls at st6 are a bit over sold..I don’t glance the vendetta, and the smaller squad doesn’t glance a chimera(LH unimpressed by the 5 sets of dices rolls to do not much).
Beasts are in and munching metal. Screamer takes out CSS transport. Havocs ping off vendetta. Get +1 to invulnerables. PLaguebearers now very clearly deadweight (I didn’t know about rust)
I’m just playing a block+ aggression game against flyers (uhhhm??)

Game from this point
Glyph does nothing.. table goes wrong twice (both times on me not accepting a neiurtal result and ending with a negative one).. cultists backed by havocs holding one base, plaguebearers another. Both vendettas (back) on dumping troops near both..Kairos is sat tar pitting opponents (4)/base, small horror squad have finally after 5 turns lost one of his bases and he now has a (1) his other base is being dominated by angry dog/nurgle beast. But I’m in a really fragile position. Then chaos table creates 10 scoring troops of my choice (I choose bloodletter and figure I’ll work out what I should pick next time).. they stomp over to my third objective. Cultist and bloodletters go to ground..Havocs drop a vendetta.
Kairos wins (using his magic eye reroll to kill 1) sweeps squad.. zooms across table puppet masters enemy chimera to heavy flamer his troops choice near one of my objectives and at t7 1am Its game over.
Ridiciulously tight game, just down to randomness. I win by 1 and a fluke.

> I would never tourney with primary demons
> They can be good.
> So much fat in list above.
> Bane was right- start on unless massive reason not to.
> Going to psychic powers is a massive downside.. so many deny the witchs passed in otherwise obvious I win situations.
> The storm table is awesome(won me the game), but you do have to have an eye on it, when building your list.
> The glyph as just a way of holding your base is awesome.. (especially since, when LH got grumpy with the height of mine I got to point out actually being 1cm tall I was being courteous, that its actually just a 2d blast template…lols) I guess in killpoint games you just choose not to place it??
>Shrouded+ stealth winthin 12” is awesome (apart from against flamer heavy forces)
I'll be back on later today mixing in what I've learnt to calve off some of the fat
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby BANE » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:16 pm

Are letters not fearless?
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:03 pm

thanks for reading and Good question- i did have to double check but...
as I said in kings thread.. they now get super fearless.
They don't care about being shot.. they do care if they lose combat by a lot and its sucks on a double 12.. but they can go to ground.

So yes plaguebearers behind an aegis
a) can go to ground
b) have shrouded (per MON) stealth within range (as per defensive grenades) and ++2 for going to ground behind an aegis.. wooo. (LH just flew over the top and shot me from behind)

UNLESS.. this is the bit where someone points out that demonic instability says that pass pinning test means they cannot go to ground..which I'm open to hearing about.. :?: :?:
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby ruffian4 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:55 pm

killmaimburn wrote:UNLESS.. this is the bit where someone points out that demonic instability says that pass pinning test means they cannot go to ground..which I'm open to hearing about.. :?: :?:

Going to ground is not being pinned. Getting pinned makes you go to ground which can't happen. No-test made = no-probs, imo.

I'll be fighting nids at the weekend, with nightlord raptor cult marines (and slaanesh) + daemon allies.
1 herald of slaanesh, lev 1 psycher, 10 daemonettes, 20 furies (ld2!!!) and a phlegm slaanesh grinder.
With that lot, I think the furies will start in reserve, coming onto the table, the grinder will deep strike the rest will start on the board.

Of course, this is skewed somewhat by the marines (primarily gun-line csm + sonics 2x 2x flamer rhino squads and 2x 10 massed flamer raptors), but deep-strike to me looks like the surprise option, not the norm.
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:55 am

How did it go ruffian old chap..
I pretty much called it time on demons as primary force last night.

I took
Kairos

17 horrors+ instrument WC3 (163) with +char upgrade for sniping shots through brotherhood
Herald- Exalted locus of conjuration +1strength, Divination default +1 tzeencth primaris ==== 95
Herald exalted reward (grimoire of awesome save unit) Level 3 primaris tzeentch + 2 div ====125
=383-

11Horrors (WC2) 99points
15 plague bearer Nurgle with instrument(190)+ herald(45)glyph (30)loci of FNP 25.=245

2 nurgle beasts 104
7Helldogs-112
7Helldogs-112

Fort=
aegis quadgun =100

Unmarked level 2 Chaos sorcerer termie armour melta bombs 115
12 cultists 58
autocannon spam havoc squad 115 (to kick the butt of flyers)
Allies ====288
1748 ish
Everything starts on, reread the bit about screamers where in they give up all their attacks for the single attack, made them useless in one little word. So swapped to dogs.
Heralds had primaries tzeentch and div,+1 dominate and book (rolled well got the 2 option so also had a staff of change).

Mission diagonals killpoints.(so not using the glyph) Against LHs autocannon heavy weapon squads 7 mech vet things and 2 vendettas..

I setup all on, he reserves max leaving just heavy weapon squads..

I charge at him. He kills some dogs I get him down 2 3 lone men (who are on fire, and have feel no pain of being on fire as well.. and have passed a 6+ save I gave them, so that my troops can’t be shot as he rolls onto the table with his battleforce.. (FLUKY OR WHAT???)

Interceptor and autocannons drop 1 vendetta Kairos locked with 10 man guard squad needing help. Casting book or plaguebearers (who’ve had FNP sniped out of them).. Really messy, we get to a point where he has vendetta and 5 chimera 4 troops. I have small tzeentch squad, remnants of big (minus sucidal perils HQs).one dog squad the beasts of awesome nurgle and kairos (about to regenerate with lifeleech).Cultists with termie urrrm sorcerer still at force by quad..Autocannons still mostly there.
We still can’t call it (I think I’m up on killpoints, but he has a distinct possibility of tabling me..and I have now run out of guns..so to speak).
We call it there because its midnight started playing at 8.

Demons just take 6th ed and stretch it sooooo long.
Example my horrors want to shoot.

>Pre game I roll 3 dice for powers just for that 1 unit+3+2 for attachments.
> movement phase I activate rerolls
>Shooting phase apply any modifier or result from the demon table.
>I check range
>I take a psychic test.
>he trys to deny the witch.
>I roll 4d6,3d6 +3d6 to work out how many shots I get.
>I roll the 3 separate bunch of dice to hit.
> I reroll bunchs of dice to hit.
>I roll to wound
>He rolls saves
>He rolls 6 up feelno pains I’ve given him.
> he rolls a toughness test.(wounds or FNP)
>If vehicle pinning checks if V lucky(even with loci of str 6 its V optimistic)
>>> entire assualt phase ++ (not just range and overwatch but also must remember always fear test etc etc)
>If unit check for running away and to see if his legs are on fire.
Oohh look I killed 4-6/10 guardsmen

Whatever happened to roll some dice, 7 is the magic number,roll to wounds, saves then done. LH was doing his nut at how much it was a computer game without a computer.4 different height piles of dice to symbolise 4 different ongoing effects on top of all the normal tokens and cotton wool etc.
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby ruffian4 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:18 pm

killmaimburn wrote:I pretty much called it time on demons as primary force last night.

Apologies, still noobish with the book and failed to understand wtf you just said. :D

killmaimburn wrote:How did it go ruffian old chap..

Due to nonsense, didn't get started till latish on sun, we are still half-way through post-poned till sunday.

Tbh, I never looked at daemons as a farce in their own right, just allies for marines and daemonettes substitute for stealers in my cult. Also, my views might be warped (hoh ho) by fluffbunny sensibility (ie only slaanesh in this mob).

But, I balked at my lack of heavy weapons, so the grinder morphed into 3x missile havocs and a twin las dreadbrute.
We got vp + triangle table too, which made me rethink (long front line will need bolstering). Both furies and daemonettes started off table walking on (furies are here, done nothing, 'nettes are still doing their hair).
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Re: How should demons come on the table? (pt1 of listbuild)

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:53 am

ruffian4 wrote:
killmaimburn wrote:I pretty much called it time on demons as primary force last night.

Apologies, still noobish with the book and failed to understand wtf you just said. :D

I think Lh best summed it up with.."too much rolling dice to find out how many dice I can roll".

I roll for whether something works(psychic test, glyph/book activate), then whether he can stop me(deny the witch or other), then how much it works then how many I can do, what kind (some of d6 strength others are a d3 table when activated).and thats after activating boons and busts and before rolling to hit and working out ongoing effects.

And thats how demons work.. you can take away all those steps but your left with an incredibly fragile melee army if you don't take the 12 extra steps stuff.(and actually some blogs argue that all the extra steps - mathhammerwise make the codex suck power wise.. I still vaguely disagree with that)

Meh..I'm only fed up with it as a primary force.. after bringing out uberpowerful DA (jk) a few times I'll bring in a small ally force of demons to give them a bash..I'll keep posting in this thread to keep stuff findable. I just needed to tidythe 1000 minis that had crept out their box this month.
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