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Top Tier Lists

Army lists, battle reports, and discussion of tactics

Top Tier Lists

Postby BANE » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:09 pm

So I am building my list that I will play this year's tournies with, a question for all you 40k players, what should I expect to see my opponents bringing?

I am looking for netlists that are doing the rounds, any power lists you have come up with yourself, something you have faced that has given you grief, or just a unit you think is currently uber enough to think its going to be in every ally list.

Any help appreciated.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:11 pm

What bracket?
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby BANE » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:07 pm

It varies, but 1750 is a decent average
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:25 pm

Its all about allies at the top end.expect a list to be X + guard (whether its for bodies/blob, flyers to compentsate a flyer poor codex or just to stick a manticore in there)..


Expect a few fiends to have all flyers 3Helldrakes/5 nightsycthees.
LH says you can ignore flyers.. I disagree,I face and drop flyers frequently(if I didn't i'd lose a lot more). I'd say you need to have weakened your opponent enough (that core min units on) before they turn up, that you can actually focus on them. Take cheap high str shots.. whether thats guard/lootas allys, or expensive risk removers a quad gun, an AI dreadnought or even better the hyperios interceptor heat seeker str8 super death to flyer guns at 35 points each).

Expect a few to be totally reliant of psychic powers.. the demon flying circus of 4-5 monsterrous creatures with 15+ powers, the nidzilla backed with tervigons who constanlty biomancy each other.
>> therefore ally in a farseer with some jetbikes, a couple of rune priests for 4 times the denial range, or a psyflemen for just some basic defence.

Expect a few people to completely ignore night fight (black sun filters(tau) infravisors (DA). Yeah alpha strikes are coming back, they are just tricky to build. MY DA is now designed around the idea that 4 lascannons 2 vindicators 1 missile a quadcannon will hit you with minimal cover turn1 (and a shed load of melta if i'm going first) (DA grenades and infravisors)..whilst not great..if your playing reserve shenanigans its funny to table people with themstill having 3/5ths of their points off the table (I got LH down to 3 minis last sunday soo close)

Expect legacy- not everyone builds a whole new army for each tourney.. there will still be some nob bikers/thundercav draigowing out there.

MSU is back, killpoint missions are as frequent as the 6 objectives mission.Many (most?) games will be over 4 objectives. DA reflects this quite nicely (demons ...erm we'll see).Exception to the rule is fast attack.. you'd don't give up first blood and a killpoint that easily anymore.
(which missions



But more imporantly know your event, if your having something with only 3 missions, what do they encourage.. what does thetournament organisor hate, did dark elfs spank him as a child so flickerfields don't work, do nids get +10 victory points for line breaker because poor nids.. get that faq get that local knowledge..e.g. TOS apparently grades your score of awesome.. not agaisnt how well you did against your opponents but about how you did against other people playing the same codex as you.. so you need to take an unpopular codex and make a good build, so that that other guy playing it who sucks so hard- bumps your scores through the roof.
(You ever drunk at a stock exchange bar where you end up drinking campari because a shot of whisky has gone up to a fiver and its only 20p...same deal)

Heres a thread on a few specific builds- its not a great thread but its starting to take some shape.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... them/page2
(personally I figure wolf-guard is a fairly sturdy thing right now..got the shooty, the bodies, the flyers, the close combat, the psychic defences)

More when I've had a bit of rest (haven't spoke a word since tuesday, been bedridden half the week.)
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby killmaimburn » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:52 am

An eldar tourney guy takes on triple chaos flyer on top tables for some event.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 13475.page

Interesting ork build.. just showing its all about allies flyers and fortifications when your serious facing it.(unless your me)
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=52741

Another interesting rep , <to me the highligh is orks taking eldar for psychic defenses..told ya>
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/08/ ... of-anorky/

same forum same style some guy winning something with nids < note the space wolfeplayer with 4 hyperios platforms as well as maxxed out missile squads, told ya>
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/03/ ... nt-report/


I found a shed load of biomancy nurgle flying MC lists waiting to go to tourney on the curernt army lists fora.. meh.
Lots of people seem to field a variant of this list too..Imotekch lots of tesla (how awesome on overwatch??) 3 annihilation barges seems pretty prevalent at the mo in the lists sections too, basically crons crons crons crons, foot crons nightsycth crons everybody crons
So as to not appear a massive hypocrite I feel I ought to say that all above can be fixed without having to spam flyers/bling bling..its just a bit tricky.I get 6th ed.. its just slow :lol: (some batreps had tau/ork beating cron epic lists in really funny matchups and
Spoiler: show
wraithlord list beats triple chaos flyer
)

I've been begging MR6 to take a wraithlord jetseer shining speer artillery list against me for weeks but he thinks they're rubbish and instead keeps fielding really poor necron lists..meh
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby BANE » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:21 am

Thanks for help, is there any point trying to be competitive without taking guard, seems all builds lead me back to IG allies.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:17 am

I think the only really useful allies are IG, Necrons, and Eldar.

IG give you access to cheap backfield scoring for Marines and a very good flyer. Or can put into the Azrael Blob if that's what you want to achieve.

Necrons give you air power, as you can get that in compulsory choices.

Eldar shut down psychers cheaply.

CSM aren't a bad choice, but to be honest given the choice between 1 helldrake and 2/3 I'd go for CSM as primary.

SM have their power in the FOC away from troops, so to get the most out of SM you need full access to Elite, Fast &/or Heavy.


I think IG allies are a no brainer for SM/CSM to be honest.
CCS - 3 x melta/plasma - in vendetta against marines/vehicles
PCS - 3 x flamer - in vendetta against hordes
3/4 x AC infantry squads
2/3 x AC HW squads (you can play with the ratio of infantry to HWS squads as needed)
Vendetta

Comes out around 650 points-ish. Gives 7 scoring units, a flyer, lots of ACs, and some AP2.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby BANE » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:59 am

That's sort of my point/question, as it stands I am trying to build the best list I can from a single codex or codex plus allies based on what I currently own. But everytime I add something I compare what those points would buy me from the IG and always come out with the answer that they offer so much more for so much less. Do I need to bite the bullet and just except that to be competitive I need to buy guard allies.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:00 am

BANE wrote: is there any point trying to be competitive without taking guard,

yes.. in that there are many other ways to ally and gain benefit passively/cheaply or expensively with a finely tuned engine/list balance (some god examples in above).

> (cheeky) get round of your point- you can gain benefits from tau (unclear at mo..first look at codex, it appears to be snipers and suits) eldar (table wide psychic defenses) in a similar way.(they just don't get to be led by your guys and direct psychic powers can't buff your primary force). But I realise your point may also be about not buying/borrowing more models, hence cheeky.

> You can also pick and choose a mashbash of grey knight bits and bobs.. although they are a fiddly codex (the psychic powers don't cross over, almost no fast attack)..and people get a bit fussy if your fielding stuff as grey knights and the only guy at the tourney without a load of beakies sprayed with silver car spray.

> (clear) ork forums constantly gripe about how space marines can ally with space marines to mess with the FOC and cherry pic the best "traits" chaos 3.5 style of what should just be one big book. (e.g. taking speedfreaks and goffs means nothing rulewise where as allying whitescars with ravenwing gives you cherry picked super wing 8 troop choices 4 fast 4 heavy complimenting each other etc etc).This is your way forwards.


Especially 6th ed codexs are built with allys in mind.. there will be A dirt cheap HQ (normally, handily enough a librarian) and at least 1 under 80point troop choice..they are trying to make allying viable even in 1000point battles..Generally for the FOC, if you have something that does something in elite.. switch to a codex where it is in heavy or fast.. If something is in heavy or fast switch to a codex where it is a troops choice.. Marines are spoilt for allys (possibly one reason why people say they're talking about ditching black templars). If taking one tactical unit, respraying it allows you to take a lone wolf in points saved..consider that in your list build.
e.g. running a mech list? Your support hq could be DA and provide an invunerable save radius.

I can hear the trillions of lurkers sharpening their knives.. but basically when your paying to play..you don't spend £50 to moan that your shooty khorne army don't work like black library said it would.

The problem I have with epic tier tourney scene at the moment isn't that all of thats available.. its that all opponents can mix and match it with random forgeworld(probably just hyperios but maybe a few other things) and I've faced people with one codex who took liberties, assumed they could do stuff,played until I caught them out etc.How people with 3 codexs 1 FW book 4 faqs will be..sets my OCD rulejudge spidey senses palsying. :banghead :banghead ( I think I'd be a bad opponent on the pro scene in 6th)

You don't have to be just another guard player in denial to gain SOME benefits from allys.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby BANE » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:16 am

Good points KMB, that thought process actually helps.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:36 am

Ljundhammer wrote:Necrons give you air power, as you can get that in compulsory choices.
CSM aren't a bad choice, but to be honest given the choice between 1 helldrake and 2/3 I'd go for CSM as primary.
CSM can't ally with smurfs, Necrons they don't score..so has to be really really good to throw away on now useless HQ and troops.

bad/lazy example.. to help further.
I want a shooty list.. I'm tired of boring parking lot/blocker lists.. so when I face them I want to kill the game, so I field.

A core space wolf arguably most shooty of traditional spasss mawines..I then find a cheap synergy codex that fills in gaps to round it out cheaper than it would within my own codex, or pours on more of the same to an almost equal bang per buck without being capped/restricted.

here I go route B at cost of balance.(in a month I see ditching DA for tau being obvious given their gravity drones that stop people coming close etc)

3 rune priests, 2 with living lightning chooser of slain, 1 with runic armour just chooser of the slain choosing BGB powers to buff army..1 per rhino+1 on backline.330

(Stops all infiltration, chucks out 2d6 autocannon shots at bs5 spread out is a load of psychic defenses)
DA librarian with infravisor powers from book-70
DA Techmarine with infravisor-55


Greyhunters melta rhino 115
Greyhunters melta rhino 115
DA 5man tactical squad with missile- 85

4hyperios T62W missile launchers with intersceptor and skyfire-140
4hyperios T62W missile launchers with intersceptor and skyfire-140

6long fangs 5 missile-140
6long fangs 5 missile-140
6long fangs 5 missile-140
DA- dev squad with 2 lascannons 2missile launchers-154


Wall with quadgun (fired by spare runepriest after casting buffs.. for precision shots and stuff although for only 55 more I'd probably upgrade to av13 contemptor mortis with skyfireinterceptor)
1725

List above has-
12 shots that will hit a flyer as it flys on the table.
20 missile and quad can fire at full range without giving away cover in nightfight/alpha (2 infravisors and 2 rhino searchlights)
35 anti tank shots from meq in total per turn.

Double the firepower of the tourney one linked above/triple anti flyer, no risk on nightfight.. at the cost of 25 scoring marines/the balance.

Do I care that guard can field more in a like for like unbalanceed/bottom heavy list,no there is a strong chance I'll get good cover/armour from their shots,their lower BS, (and lower T of directly comparing HWS to hyperios) means means maths argument comes into play about who would actually damage who the most on a bowling ball.

Now naturally I wouldn't field this list.. as it doesn't have bikes and is a bit troop light.. but it illustrates the B) pour on more of X option.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:15 pm

killmaimburn wrote:3 rune priests, 2 with living lightning chooser of slain, 1 with runic armour just chooser of the slain choosing BGB powers to buff army..1 per rhino+1 on backline.330

(Stops all infiltration, chucks out 2d6 autocannon shots at bs5 spread out is a load of psychic defenses)
DA librarian with infravisor powers from book-70


And someone takes a 100 point eldar ally contingent that shuts down your 400 points. Or with 3 land raiders, v's your 2 melta gun army.

There's a plus and a minus to all things. Unfortunately there are too many "things" in 40k to be able to cover all your bases. IG allies will cover most of them, others can do. FW probably does, but it's so far out of my realm of interest I have no idea what a hyperios is...

You also need to factor in that you are very unlikely to get past turn 4 in a tournament scenario.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:27 pm

Ljundhammer wrote:And someone takes a 100 point eldar ally contingent that shuts down your 400 points.
No its shuts down 2 d6 autocannons, it doesn't stop them wound absorbing, it doesn't stop them stopping infiltrators, it doesn't etc etc (mutter mutter rounding up silly high)

Ljundhammer wrote:Or with 3 land raiders, v's your 2 melta gun army.
Meh.. who runs landraiders now?? I said it was an unblanced example.but lascannons (should be 4 assisted in above I got bored) and missile glances for the win!!!!!

Ljundhammer wrote:. FW probably does, but it's so far out of my realm of interest I have no idea what a hyperios is...
hyperios is an automated T/L'd str8 heatseeker(redundant rule), skyfire,interceptor t6 2w..0-4 fast attack slot for a space marine army at 35 points each..and is basically the FU to vendetta and croisant spam on the tourney scene(and nearly all tourneys I've read up basically advertise up front.."yes you can take a squadron of hyperios"" to lesson flyer spam)

Ljundhammer wrote:You also need to factor in that you are very unlikely to get past turn 4 in a tournament scenario.
Alhpa strikes.. whilst boring do that very successfully, unlike high model count armies :D :D
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:52 pm

Hmm. I knew there was a reason I don't like FW.
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Re: Top Tier Lists

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:57 pm

Yep all the balance and "but look at my vrakks list"s in the world will never save forgeworld from the tourney scene cherry picking bits that slap the meta ... I lolled.. but srly they are everywhere.
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