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Trouble with Templars

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Trouble with Templars

Postby ZhatanTheBlack » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:25 pm

as some of you may know Ive been building a Black Templars army since June. I went with a crusdaer squad heavy army all mounted ib Landraier crusaders, but am struggling to get anywhere with them. any ideas on what to do? Ive been thinking of writing a themed list from the BA codex but other than that im struggling.
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby da_grot » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:11 pm

Personally I think going land raider heavy Isn't a great idea.

Too many points tied into a small amount of models especially seeing how easily it is to pop a l'raider with melta weaponry.

I think that boots on the ground would be more successful giving you more units to work with.

Just my opinion though.

PS. If you want we could swap armies next time we play and see how each other would run a list differently.
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby WolflordHavoc » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:06 am

In a 1500 game 1 Land Raider is the max IMO.

Take too many and you are going to be badly outnumbered both in terms of units and fire power.

I agree with Da Grot - the strength of a BT army is its core rules - I would go with lots of warm bodies - with perhaps 1 LRC Suprise!
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby KInG » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:32 am

how many LRC in ur list?
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby Herne » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:58 am

There's a lot to be said for large squads with the full inclusion of neophytes. (Think of them as ablative armour....) With the current terrain rules giving a 4+ and the ability to run the squads are covering the board quickly, and there's so many bodies in a squad they're gonna get where they're going as long as you plan their route before hand. Vehicles can then become rolling blockades to provide cover in those more open areas. LR's are great, and we both know what nasty chunk of killiness can fall out of one onto your doorstep, but then thats why people kill em either at a distance or with a sacrificial melta or two. Try playing a game where you don't take any - see what you can get for the points and play with the force to see where their other strengths may lie, before reconsidering the LR's.
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby killmaimburn » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:47 pm

WolflordHavoc wrote:In a 1500 game 1 Land Raider is the max IMO.

Not sure.. Faced a good witch hunters list with 3 in at the GT which did well.
Ljundhammers deathwing has 2 and does exceedingly well.(GT finalist list).
There are several khorne lists based around 2 that do quite well.
I think the problem is your gunboats are an all or nothing and you have to keep your hands in your pockets fidgeting until the exact moment they can do the thing they do.


OP Have you read ljundhammers landraidery tactica stuff?
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachmen ... 1258362753
(I'd add on ways to accurately spot guess a) width of landraider 4", length of flat top 6"s, b) between thumb and first finger=6", thumb to little finger squashed on a table 8"s approx. but those are sneakys).. and you also want to read up on "blocking" probably find something on 3++ new black on skimmers. for black templars I suggest heavy flamer multimeltas :)

If you switch to BA that perpetual 5+ cover will help most with your patience, everyone can pop smoke once, most people can cover hug.. but the luxury of being able to sit back that extra turn can make your opponents nerves pop.

What models you got, what are you thinking of?
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:29 pm

Land raiders depends on the army you're using it with. The key, as with all things is synergy.

They work well in DW armies as they do everything that DW can't, and do everything that DW can as well. (Obviously I'm talking about crusaders, godhammers are bunk)

In a vanilla SM army they can only really achieve 2 things:
1) Get your TH/SS terminators into the midfield, and if you ar lucky, beyond
2) Stop your opponent firing at other tanks for a couple of turns

Any more than that and really you're being optomistic.

There are great synergies between Crusaders and shooty teminators, needing a bit of finesse to work. CC terminators, and other CC specialits (like vanguard) reduce the LRC to an assault boat with hopefully a go at shooting at some point. And 250 points is a lot of points to act as an assault boat.

Hopefully the meta is moving away from the melta spam we've seen to date, with BA AV11/13 spam, guard AV12 spam, and DE AV10 spam all making the player diversify away from simply taking meltas that get retaliated on everytime they pop a transport. Longer range weapons are just as good at taking out AV11/12/13, but not so good at AV14, so the LRC may rise again. But at the moment, melta spam makes it a tough ride!
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby ZhatanTheBlack » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:04 pm

the current 1500 pts ive been using consists of emperors champ with suffer not the unlcea to live (+1s-1I for entire army) chaplain with terminator honours, chaplain on bike with terminator honours, 2 15man crusader squads (10 initiates, 5 neophytes) with power weapon and melta gun in lrc and 3 bikes with power weapons
whats that coming over the hill, is it a monster, is it a...oh sh*t its Kharn.
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby Herne » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:53 pm

How are you finding the 3 bikes. Generally I wouldn't take a unit that small as it tends to get creamed with spare shooting.
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:05 am

Why not and accept any challenge and have a chaplin effect every turn of every combat for every unit (apart from sub category neophytes.(but inc dreadnoughts :) )
Your going slower than most stuff in the game but your not taking a hidden powerfist in your super big squads?
Fearlessness sucks in 40k (auto having to take a buttload of no retreat wounds etc) and the only time your army uses it is when they get out of the giant bullet proof super tanks so you don't have to worry too much about failring leadership tests form being shot.... + really you want to have the option to fall forwards if possible (remember that consolidate moves you move *up to distance rolled* so when you do the whole black templar thing you can choose how far to go (some people may need a little convincing with the rule book)
Champ and chaplins as are=407 (including bolt pistols)
New faq doesn't require another HQ so don't take one=
Champ with accept any challenge
2 heavy flamer MM tornado speeders (for blocking and for stuff you can't beat up in combat)
1 autocannon las cannon sponsoned predators.. (for taking out far away weapon platforms you don't want to get close to (or can't in quarters) like exorcists and stuff.
=415 (so drop 1 neophyte to fit). Same number of killpoints too.
The 42points per model bikes seem very fragile.. but presumably they are *always* totally out of any los behind the landraiders ..there is probably something you could switch them out for but..for now just try the above and see how it works :D (and rerolling to hit when they are stuck in a drawn out combat for several turns will help more IMO)
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:39 am

ZhatanTheBlack wrote:the current 1500 pts ive been using consists of emperors champ with suffer not the unlcea to live (+1s-1I for entire army) chaplain with terminator honours, chaplain on bike with terminator honours, 2 15man crusader squads (10 initiates, 5 neophytes) with power weapon and melta gun in lrc and 3 bikes with power weapons


Hmmm, I think I can see the problem here.

You have 2 LRCs transporting 2 large CC squads. The problems I can see you might be having:

1) The CC squads aren't good enough
2) There is nothing to shoot at other than the LRCs
3) You have no synergy on shooting (or more accurately, no shooting!)

If you are going to run the LRCs and contents as an assault threat you need to ensure that they actually deliver. Part of the problem is the vow you have taken, meaning that your assault threat is dampened by the fact that less bodies get to hit anything, as they are already dead.

I'm afraid I don't think I can get that army to work without radically changing it. Things to consider:

1) Change the vow - as KMB says, the re-roll to hit one is far superior than any of the others
2) You are spending far to many points on HQs, combined with reducing their I value, they really won't be getting you anywhere fast
3) Make the LRCs have a threat in them - Terminators & sword brethen should be in there - I'm afraid basic marines, of any sort (BA and Chaos excepted) aren't too hot as dedicated CC monsters, even with the number of attacks you have
4) Support the LRCs - razorbacks, MM attack bikes, predators, dreads, and speeders are the obvious things to take some heat off the LRCs by giving your opponent choices as to what is the immediate threat. This will also make your army less predictable, as at the moment you can only have one tactic - drive forward & assault on turn 2. An opponent seeing this army will know what is coming & set up (or not) accordingly.

Unfortunately what the above does is relagate the actual cool bit of BTs - big squads with neophytes - redundant, as the support elements will eat into the points needed to:
a) hurt the enemy
b) stop your troops from being killed & therefore not scoring

As I say, without radically changing how you play the army, I don't think you will be able to change your fortunes.

Of course, you could run without any mech and simply run a shed load of marines across the board, which may have the effect you are after without the LRCs. That can work, but again, is not what I'd consider to be 'super effective'.

Good luck.
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby killmaimburn » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:00 am

Ljundhammer wrote:razorbacks, MM attack bikes
Not those two in BT.. remember this is a 4th ed codex.. that heavy bolter platform costs the same as a HF MM speeder (and has no real upgrades).MM attack bike must come in pairs and likewise cost 130 (always).
Take the stuff that costs relatively the same (or is better, e.g. terminators) or change the codex you use. :mrgreen:
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Re: Trouble with Templars

Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:08 pm

killmaimburn wrote:or change the codex you use. :mrgreen:


Given the fact that to make that build effective, you pretty much strip out everything BT unique, this may be your best bet.

Have you considered "Blood Templars" 8O
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