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Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Army lists, battle reports, and discussion of tactics

Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby KInG » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:37 pm

mortiferum wrote:Re: combi weapons before and after shots fired.

Not specifically related to complex units but it reminds me of query in a thread I read sometime ago (most probably on WSeer) about whether or not a Hunter Killer upgrade weapon could be weapon destroyed after it had fired its single shot. Anyone know what the answer is here?

i remembr it said u can loose them in the FAQ as a wepaon. But once fired I am thinking not.

as for skyray and manticore, they would loose turrets, hence all missiles in one go.
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby KInG » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:38 pm

actually now I think about it Im not sure.

how are these weapons listed in the profile?
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby killmaimburn » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:06 pm

They aren't, they reference another (as a single shot) and I've already also linked the thorny topic of wargear that is stipulated to be removed once used...a big problem.
- note kings reading also provides certain benefits for certain users (a different egg)
To quote the great culven
"The models have selected combi-Plasma, -Flamer, -Melta, and so are different. Claiming that they are Combi-Weapons, and the player chooses how the weapon fires causes problems that we don't need to go into here. There is also some question as to whether the models will become identical in game terms once the combi- component has been fired. There are good arguements for each side, but it is something that should be discussed with one's gaming group." http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... bi+complex

But I thought it had been put to bed after that.. just reading up..Actually yeah.. thats a good thread I just linked :D
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby KInG » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:35 pm

*king clicks toby's link... reads a debate about this topic on another forum, warseer of all places - the place I tried to escape from because I thought their debates were long winded, full of crap and not very enlightening*

cool. i see... there's no point in debating as we now know there's no end to it?

123 it is, 456 it isn't :D
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby Ljundhammer » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:49 pm

KInG wrote:123 it is, 456 it isn't :D


Seems the best we'll get! GW should just write the next rule book with 1 rule - roll a dice, on a 123 player 1 wins, on a 456 player 2 wins.

Then think of the rules debates about allocating who is player 1 & player 2. The tactics forum will be full of rantings that player 1 always wins. Meanwhile the fluff forums will be debating why Abbadon always rolls low (maybe it's the claws).
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby KInG » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:27 pm

lol
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby mattjgilbert » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:48 pm

In fact the casino dice vs rounded GW dice debate will come up because the GW dice are statisitcally biased meaning that being player one or two becomes more relevant.

I much prefered the predicted 40K 10th Ed where the entire stat line was reduced to a single COOL value. Space Marines have 10 and everyone else has 1.

Roll 1D6 and add your COOL value. Highest roll wins.
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby timewizard » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:18 pm

mattjgilbert wrote:Roll 1D6 and add your COOL value. Highest roll wins.

Elvis and the Fonz would always win, their cool value is astronomical!

On combi weapons, they are not identical (not with each other nor with regular bolters.) Identical means exactly the same.
As to HK missiles, my friend and I play that they are still weapons for "weapon destroyed" results even after being fired. This is becsuse;
a-He chooses which weapon is destroyed, so obviously a spent HK is the last one to go
b-Firing the melta weapon of a combi-melta doesn't remove the weapon, it just means the melta fired it's one shot.

I know this may seem like comparing apples to oranges, but it works for us.
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:49 pm

On the topic of complex units vs Combi Weapons, p25 says:
"The rules... ...so far... ...assume all models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms."
This supports the idea that a Marine with a Bolter is the same as a Marine with a Combi-Flamer that has used the Flamer part.

However, GW then goes on to explain that they dont actually mean what they said in that sentance: they mean something else entirely:
"By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."
This means that the Marine with a Bolter is not the same as a Marine with a Combi-Flamer that has used the Flamer part, despite them being identical in gaming terms, because they have different weapons.

Thing is with this issue, is that whichever way you take it, someone isnt going to like it (either the person rolling the saves or their opponent, depending on the situation). As long as you clarify how it is going to work with your opponent before the game, and then stick to it regardless of who will benefit at a given time, then it shouldnt be an issue. :)

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p.s. As for HKM's: When you buy a HMK, you are buying a Missile, not a Missile Launcher. Once the missile has been fired, it cant be counted when establishing whether the vehicle "has no weapons left" IMO - because it doesnt have that weapon any more! At least, IMHO. ;)
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:06 am

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Thing is with this issue, is that whichever way you take it, someone isnt going to like it (either the person rolling the saves or their opponent, depending on the situation). As long as you clarify how it is going to work with your opponent before the game, and then stick to it regardless of who will benefit at a given time, then it shouldnt be an issue. :)


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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby mattjgilbert » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:31 am

Soooooo.......

How are we going to handle build a tactics area then?

Is this a good way of testing the wordpress stuff?
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby KInG » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:43 am

they won't know what ur on about matt as this is a public forum ;)
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby mattjgilbert » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:54 am

but you do :D
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby Ljundhammer » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:12 am

This is a public forum. I don't know what you're on about...
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Re: Who is Tzun Tzu? TOTAL TACTICS!!!

Postby mattjgilbert » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:15 am

but you do :D


oh, hang on...
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