Login

Username:


Password:


Remember me



Forgot Password?




 Merchandise




Playing VC

6.45pm Monday - Downley community centre, School close, Downley HP13 5TR

Moderators: Jimster, BigJim

Playing VC

Postby Ian » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:48 pm

Having just played Phil with the new VC and thought I would put out some thoughts and rules that became obvious in the game but not from reading the book.

General - Killing the general is not longer a game ender! You take a crumble test at the end of the combat phase and then another wizard takes over. Not too sure what happens if they die, I assume another crumble occurs before the next takes over.

Marching. OK they screwed us on this one! 12" range of the general unless you have Vampiric rule. Doesn't sound much but it really stuffs your first few turn and means any flank units are not going to move very fast. Ghouls armies with Vargheist and Varghuls on the flanks are OK but everyone else is toast. Given a standard board is 48" long and your general has range of 24" that means half the board on your side can not march. This means you will have to concentrate in the centre and give up flanks to the enemy. Not a good thing to do.

Coven Thrones - OK first time out but it is now clear that its a combat item and an expensive one at that. If you want magical help then take the Mortice Engine. Given that a lord is 220 add 100 points items and powers and then 220 for the throne you are looking at 700 points! Not really worth it unless your are 4K, maybe 3K. Given this you need to get it in fast so put a combat Vamp on it.

Skabscrath Magic Item - Ok top whack at 75 points but is it any good? The shriek is based on your 2D6 + Wounds verses they LD. So you are looking at c.10 (avg 7 + 3) vs 8-9. So 1-2 wounds on average. Add in the flaming attac and +1 A on charge its nots bad but is it work 75points meaning you can take any decent armour or ward save?

Banshees - Total waste of points now! The howl can now only be used in the shooting phase (and if you are in combat) and can not be used in stand and shoot as the rules now state the only reaction action is to hold. Having then as unit heroes is daft as they are so weak that any two bit hero can kill them and any unit with a magical banner. At 95pts its waste and still best to be used in units of 3-4 with the Cairn Wraiths. Wonder how they would work as Heroes?

Magic - Oh dear! VC still live or die on the magic phase and most of the time its die. The one benefit they have is they can take the power to re-roll a magic dice but at 75 points it still risky as I found out (the four times I used it only once did it improve and twice it got worse - hard to do when you roll 5!!!). So on average you have 7 dice and that is just not enough!!! You need to beef up you units and bring them back and the spells just don't give you that ability. Nehek now is signature and is D6+level (good) but only 6" range. OK boost to 12" or 18" for 12 & 18 pts but that most of your dice for a round!!. Vanhels no longer gives you ASF and the move does not count as a charge! Hellish vigour is good and Gaze useful. Raise Dead gives you 2D6+3 zombies but then you need Nehek to add! Curse of years again is good but wind of death is just a vortex that hurt units - you don't even get spirit host out of it!! You can have lots of bound items but without the dice to cast them they are not much use. And to boot you have lost the necromantic multi casting ability so only Nehek can be done more than once! This is going to mean that bringing units back is just not possible, as you will cast 3-4 spell and expect only 1-2 to get off. You may tinker with a units numbers but you have to go in with units that are tough. Because of this you can expect to see ghoul based armies or armies with a minimum skelis and maxed out grave guard and other fluff.

I really wish zombies were cheaper and things like the Tomb blade & Helm of command had been kept so that you could at least go with a proper undead army. Magic should allow you to bring them back and make them powerful so they can stand up to other armies.

I was hoping that this VC book would bring them to a competative level but it hasn't. Sure buy the new figures and specials and you could compete but its not going to happen often.

Maybe I am being a bit harsh given I was beaten by Phil and I will see in the next few weeks just how it pans out but I am disappointed - it could have been so much better.

Ian
Ian
Genestealer
Genestealer
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:28 pm

Re: Playing VC

Postby DaBoss » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:06 pm

Ian wrote:Having just played Phil with the new VC and thought I would put out some thoughts and rules that became obvious in the game but not from reading the book.

General - Killing the general is not longer a game ender! You take a crumble test at the end of the combat phase and then another wizard takes over. Not too sure what happens if they die, I assume another crumble occurs before the next takes over.


Looks to me that only one crumble test after General Death as new General does not come into effect till the start of your next turn.

What needs a FAQ is if the new General allows you to March?

Ian wrote:Marching. OK they screwed us on this one! 12" range of the general unless you have Vampiric rule. Doesn't sound much but it really stuffs your first few turn and means any flank units are not going to move very fast. Ghouls armies with Vargheist and Varghuls on the flanks are OK but everyone else is toast. Given a standard board is 48" long and your general has range of 24" that means half the board on your side can not march. This means you will have to concentrate in the centre and give up flanks to the enemy. Not a good thing to do.


Even worse Table is 72" wide, even if units are Hordes on the edge and scenery, still let's your opponent get round the flank.

Ian wrote:Coven Thrones - OK first time out but it is now clear that its a combat item and an expensive one at that. If you want magical help then take the Mortice Engine. Given that a lord is 220 add 100 points items and powers and then 220 for the throne you are looking at 700 points! Not really worth it unless your are 4K, maybe 3K. Given this you need to get it in fast so put a combat Vamp on it.


Really needs to be combat Vampire Lord with ASF, Ogre Blade for strength, Red Fury and some points for a Ward Save. Going to closer to 700pts so that's all your Lord points allowance.
I would only contemplate at 4000+ points.

Ian wrote:Skabscrath Magic Item - Ok top whack at 75 points but is it any good? The shriek is based on your 2D6 + Wounds verses they LD. So you are looking at c.10 (avg 7 + 3) vs 8-9. So 1-2 wounds on average. Add in the flaming attac and +1 A on charge its nots bad but is it work 75points meaning you can take any decent armour or ward save?


Only really worth it on a Ghoul King I think

Ian wrote:Banshees - Total waste of points now! The howl can now only be used in the shooting phase (and if you are in combat) and can not be used in stand and shoot as the rules now state the only reaction action is to hold. Having then as unit heroes is daft as they are so weak that any two bit hero can kill them and any unit with a magical banner. At 95pts its waste and still best to be used in units of 3-4 with the Cairn Wraiths. Wonder how they would work as Heroes?


I'm going to stick with Tomb Banshees in with the Cairn Wraiths units.

Ian wrote:Magic - Oh dear! VC still live or die on the magic phase and most of the time its die. The one benefit they have is they can take the power to re-roll a magic dice but at 75 points it still risky as I found out (the four times I used it only once did it improve and twice it got worse - hard to do when you roll 5!!!). So on average you have 7 dice and that is just not enough!!! You need to beef up you units and bring them back and the spells just don't give you that ability. Nehek now is signature and is D6+level (good) but only 6" range. OK boost to 12" or 18" for 12 & 18 pts but that most of your dice for a round!!. Vanhels no longer gives you ASF and the move does not count as a charge! Hellish vigour is good and Gaze useful. Raise Dead gives you 2D6+3 zombies but then you need Nehek to add! Curse of years again is good but wind of death is just a vortex that hurt units - you don't even get spirit host out of it!! You can have lots of bound items but without the dice to cast them they are not much use. And to boot you have lost the necromantic multi casting ability so only Nehek can be done more than once! This is going to mean that bringing units back is just not possible, as you will cast 3-4 spell and expect only 1-2 to get off. You may tinker with a units numbers but you have to go in with units that are tough. Because of this you can expect to see ghoul based armies or armies with a minimum skelis and maxed out grave guard and other fluff.


Yep magic is going to be tough, you need a Vampire Lord with that 75pt ability to give you a fighting chance.

Ian wrote:I really wish zombies were cheaper and things like the Tomb blade & Helm of command had been kept so that you could at least go with a proper undead army. Magic should allow you to bring them back and make them powerful so they can stand up to other armies.

I was hoping that this VC book would bring them to a competative level but it hasn't. Sure buy the new figures and specials and you could compete but its not going to happen often.

Maybe I am being a bit harsh given I was beaten by Phil and I will see in the next few weeks just how it pans out but I am disappointed - it could have been so much better.

Ian


Don't worry, I did tailor my army with Mark of Khorne units and the Mark of Tzeentch units having good Ward saves. (Warriors of Chaos are still top tier army whereas Vampire Couns are not)

Think as we chatted, need min points of Skeletons and then Deathstar of Grave Guard with Combat Vamp backed up by other casters.

See how things go against the Dwarves
User avatar
DaBoss
Junior Officer
Junior Officer
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:00 am
Location: High Wycombe
Blog: View Blog (43)

Re: Playing VC

Postby Ogregut » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:00 pm

I dont think its all doom and gloom, Ive used them in 2 games and enjoyed both. Played vs deamons and lost the first and won the second.

I agree with Phil that only one crumble test is needed if you have another wizard using the vampire lore but he doesn't allow any unit to march as he is not the general.

The marching is a bit of a problem and it does make you think a bit more about deployment.

Im not sure what you mean when you say banshees can now only scream in the shooting phase (and in combat). When could they do otherwise? I like the banshees as heroes, they are much cheaper then buying them in a unit of wraiths. Dont forget they not combat characters however they are great for tying up heroes without magic weapons. I think the best way to use them is put them in a unit to start with, see how much magic missiles are about and then let them run about on their own. I seem to remember one of mine quite resently killing a very large spider in one go. Im sure you do as well Ian!

Haven't used the coven throne so cant really comment but it is expensive like all vamp lords.

I like the new magic spells, with a high level caster and a couple of low level necros you can still spam IoN. Yes you cnat charge with Vanhels now but it can be cast on every unit within 12". As for the ASF bit, thats where corpse carts come in and bat swarms (which I overlooked at first).
Hellish Vigor is a great spell, even more so combined with Vanhels.
Great to see skeletons can be raised with Raise Dead again.
Curse hasnt changed and is still good.
I agree with Wind of Death, it is a bit poo!

I really dont think you have to take Master of the Black Arts to do well in magic. The power that adds D3 to IoN will help alot as will having a Mortis Engine. Having 2 Lv 1 wizards by the ME lets them cast like a Lv 3. Also having 3-4 wizards means more channeling attempts. If you really want more dice the black perpit will be a big help.

You say that you wish magic would able you to bring the models back and make them powerful to stand up to other armies; it does. I had a unit of 11 Black Knights led by a vampire lord charge into a 25 strong horror unit. Re-rolling to hit and wound allowed me to pop the unit in one go.

As with the other new books I think its quite balanced, there are no choices that you have to take in every game or any that are so weak they will never be used. I really like there isn't just one build like the old book, Im looking forward to trying an army with no vamps and a ghost heavy one. I think your having a bit of a knee jerk reaction to losing and playing WoC probably wasn't the best starter game.
Yes I study Psychology, no I can't read your mind.........yet!

Devlin mud, painting armies since 2008!
User avatar
Ogregut
Exarch
Exarch
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:00 am
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Playing VC

Postby DaBoss » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:46 am

Ogregut wrote:Im not sure what you mean when you say banshees can now only scream in the shooting phase (and in combat). When could they do otherwise? I like the banshees as heroes, they are much cheaper then buying them in a unit of wraiths. Dont forget they not combat characters however they are great for tying up heroes without magic weapons. I think the best way to use them is put them in a unit to start with, see how much magic missiles are about and then let them run about on their own. I seem to remember one of mine quite resently killing a very large spider in one go. Im sure you do as well Ian!

This is exactly what Ian then did with his Tomb Banshee's, used the Ghoul units as a Delivery mechanising to stop me from Flickering Fire them, then run round howling at units.
Must admit the howling only managed to kill 6 Chaos Warriors and a Chariot in total with 3 different Tomb Banshees - not brilliant (especially as the Chariot had already crushed the Black Coach).

Ogregut wrote:You say that you wish magic would able you to bring the models back and make them powerful to stand up to other armies; it does. I had a unit of 11 Black Knights led by a vampire lord charge into a 25 strong horror unit. Re-rolling to hit and wound allowed me to pop the unit in one go.

I think a Vampire Lord and Black Knights verses a Horror Unit is not a good example, even with a 4+ ward save, i think it's an easy win...

Ogregut wrote:I think your having a bit of a knee jerk reaction to losing and playing WoC probably wasn't the best starter game.

True my WoC was tooled up to face Undead and I took advantage of the 6' by 6' playing area to target Ian's Flanks and split his army into 3 fronts. Still it was close only 300pts in it...

Still I believe the tiering of armies are:
1st Tier - Dark Elves, High Elves, Warriors of Chaos, Skaven
2nd Tier - Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdom, Vampire Counts, Orcs & Goblins
3rd Tier - Empire, Lizardmen, Daemons of Chaos, Dwarves
4th Tier - Bretonnia, Wood Elves, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves*

*Chaos Dwarves - not seen a pure army played from the Forge book to be able to rate them.

To my mind, all the new Army Books have settled in the 2nd Tier of ability which is good (just need all the other books to be in this same level of re-write?)
User avatar
DaBoss
Junior Officer
Junior Officer
 
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:00 am
Location: High Wycombe
Blog: View Blog (43)

Re: Playing VC

Postby Ian » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:33 pm

Ogregut wrote:The marching is a bit of a problem and it does make you think a bit more about deployment..


True but in a large battle or ones where your deployment is changed you can have a very large part of your army out of range of the general putting you at a big disdvantage.

Ogregut wrote:Im not sure what you mean when you say banshees can now only scream in the shooting phase (and in combat). When could they do otherwise? .


The could Stand and shoot, now it specifically say not,

Ogregut wrote: I like the banshees as heroes, they are much cheaper then buying them in a unit of wraiths. Dont forget they not combat characters however they are great for tying up heroes without magic weapons. I think the best way to use them is put them in a unit to start with, see how much magic missiles are about and then let them run about on their own. I seem to remember one of mine quite resently killing a very large spider in one go. Im sure you do as well Ian! .


They are 75pts in a unit but 95pt as a hero, but as a hero they have an extra wound. I did think about this and it may not be so bad as thought initially given that most banner have an affect but it does not make the attacks magical so she will be safe.


Ogregut wrote: As with the other new books I think its quite balanced, there are no choices that you have to take in every game or any that are so weak they will never be used. I really like there isn't just one build like the old book, Im looking forward to trying an army with no vamps and a ghost heavy one. I think your having a bit of a knee jerk reaction to losing and playing WoC probably wasn't the best starter game.


Oh I agree facing Phil and WoC is not the best to start but hard games like that do show up the issues faster.I am going to beat up Dicko tonight so that should make me feel better.

I agree that the different ways of building armies will be good (planning to split mine into a ghoul, a ghost and everything else armies) but I am disappointed with the book in gernal. Lots of the feel has gone, just look at the background compared to the last volume. I suppose the gradual dumbing down and armies all getting the same things is getting me down.

Ian
Ian
Genestealer
Genestealer
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:28 pm




Return to Armageddon Inc




 Social Links