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Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:24 am

Following up from Matt calling LH out (here anything-goes/a-challenge-for-ljundhammer-t5419.html?hilit=ljundhammer )
Rules questions
1)Charge range..what is it where is it listed, I read 4 paragraphs on charging (it looks like the most covered area of the rules and yet...) the only measurement I could find was "without measuring how much distance they actually cover" OMG limitless charge range.
We took it to be the same as "at the double", but allowed by shambling, being in terrain etc.

2) Charge order.. charge is a move done before shooting, so if you charge someone you may not shoot at them.. (phase 2) before assault melees are resolved (phase 3) correct..It went counter to how we play games...but I actually really liked that.(and how you couldn't push people to nerve test from shooting then assault)

3)To hit ranged.. I wasn't sure if I was being cheeky..but to hit is capped at at worst needing 6s and halving dice right?? So if I already needed 6s and I moved and they are in cover far away -3 modifier ..its is greater than 6 therefore half the dice and still needing 6s right? (when we started we looked at ranged and LH instantly gave up all his shooty and swapped for assault .. but actually capping stuff at that makes it fairly bell curve reasonable...did we read that right?)

4) Dark surge.. I think I fudged up shambling and I never really cast dark surge.. but as a shooting attack that drives on your own men.. does specific overide general, it says if you come into b2b treat it like a successful charge, so if I am "wavering" (charge is not one of the orders listed as allowable in that state) can I dark surge into combat when ,in effect, pinned.
4b)Cheaty ruleslawyer hypothetical.. "The unit has a ranged attack that can only target friendly Shambling units." it doesn't say target a friendly shambling unit, does this mean I can push more tan one unit ,e.g. I allocate my 8 surge 4 to each...yes this would be overtly going against targeting single units, but it already goes against that by speicifying friendlies as well.. how much is the plurals just my optimism??


Lists
LHs bits of paper-ORKS.

30 axehorde banner musician 195
30 axehorde banner musician 195
20 greataxe regiment banner musician 140
5 morax-45
6 fight wagons with banner and muscian 185 (how hard core are they!!!)
760

Mine Undead
Necromancer-110
Necromancer-110
Revanant cavalry10 muscian banner 185
Baleful catapult 70
20 Skelly bob archers 80
20 Skellys with spears (nice) banner-110
10 Ghouls 45 points
10 basic skellys 45
755.

I won dice off to go first, we played a simple version of the first mission, basically pitched battle 12" in etc.
I sent my horses hooming around a large peice of terrain hoping for a side attack on the advancing orks whilst my stuff opened up suppressive fire with spears up front.. unfortunately.. I didn't read the whole stuff about no modifers on the indirect cannon so it occasionally killed 1 guy and I set it up way too close because I thought it suffered range modifiers.
I forgot inspiring so I lost my 2 small units straight away to rolling 10s for nerve (and forgetting I'd paid more than a 3rd of my points to get rerolls)

I totally missed that I had a universal rule of for every guy I kill I get a guy back (DOHHH!..to be fair I doubt my opponent read his list to see everything he had had crushing strength either)

So with wounded horses I kept battering away at a giant ork squad who ran turn 5..my catapult got hit by 56 attacks due to being artillery and went down.My 20 guys with spears did really well.. but then I made a fall back move 3"s forgetting that charges aren't slowed down by terrain so LH hit them with double attacks (he didn't care about one less on the to hit chart with double).
My necromancers were in the centre of the carnage just casting zap all over the place hoping for some of his elite units to run away.(didn't work).

Crushing Victory to LH we both goofed up a fair bit.. but 750 first game 35 minutes.. fun was had.


Things I love.. I love the ability that 60 attacks can be resolved in a matter of seconds..
I love that although you can dual pincer stuff you can’t super weather down someone with 15 pinning attacks.There is very little intervening in a game turn.
The only complex stuff is unit specials (very very like bloodbowl)
I like that small really fragile squads have disproportionately more attacks/firepower than bigger ones..if I’d mastered inspiring with the small squads I think my made up on spot list would actually be ok..(I’m drooling at the idea of a vast number of skelly troop archers backed up by cannon and necromancers

I don’t see why people would take zombies (weaker skelly bobs with slightly better nerve and a few more attacks, why not take bows?)Ghouls not being shambling and having speed 6 makes them faster than my cavalry.. so I guess on 2nd appearances they have a role too…
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ruffian4 wrote:Handy fellow, this kmb...Like Ahriman delving the paths of the webway ...
World of ME First try at Apoc Batrep WHAT/WHO is AOS?
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby Baragash » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:00 am

1) 3rd bullet point under charging - double pace (I agree, could have been phrased better).

2) Correct (not sure you were really asking a question ;) )

3) Correct, capped at 6s/half dice.

4a) All Shambling units treat Wavering as Steady so this situation cannot arise, as Dark Surge can only be used on Shambling units.

4b) Dark Surge is a ranged attack and is bound by all the rules for ranged attacks that it isn't specifically exempt from, so single target only.

But did you two enjoy the system?
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:16 am

I liked it.

Clean & quick & loads of dice. Only issue is the sheer number of models (I had nearly 100 at 750ish points, and the normal game is 2,000(?)) & my normal fantasy gripe that you only ever see 1/5 of them (although even more so than normal as you don't even get a dead pile!)
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby DaBoss » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:32 am

Baragash wrote:But did you two enjoy the system?


I hope you did...

Been playing a few games with my Son (aged 9), he had been learning WFB 8th but found all the rules too much, he just wants to roll lots of dice.
We've been keeping to 800pts so far.
1st game - Bradley used Undead vs my Abyssal Dwarves - I sat back and fired my Thunderpipes but could not slow all the Skeleton Regiments down. His Revenants battled a couple of turns against my Blacksoul Regiment till he managed to flank me with a Skeleton Regiment - double attacks saw me break

2nd game - Bradley used my Dark Elves (Twilight Kin) vs my Undead - again the Skeleton Regiments were very solid to damage, until his High Priestess moved to 12" and Breath Attacked 7pts damage on some damaged skeletons making them crumble. Unfortunately in the combat I still had 3 regiments against his 2 and managed to get a flank charge which broke the Darksome Guard and then next turn the Twilight Spearmen.

So far 1 game each.

Things I've noticed:
1) Having more units on the board than your opponent gives you move flexibility.
2) Flank charges are devastating - makes you really have to think about sending 1 unit up against 2 units.
3) Heal is a very useful spell, both the Abssyal Dwarfs and Twilight Kin lack this and those couple of damage points can make all the difference.

Pleased to feel that for a more simple and quick game - KoW works for me. So now I need to 'eat my words' about the Undead not being good or the points system not being balanced (see my blog) - it does seem to work.
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby killmaimburn » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:22 pm

Thanks for the help :D.
Need to read more stuff about shambling.. :/
Yes I am a fanboi of it..(girlish gush) It was speedchess table top gaming.
DaBoss wrote:1) Having more units on the board than your opponent gives you move flexibility..

It depends.. I'm quite a "how do I break this to see how it works" kind of person.
And needing to have the 20 man squads to unlock the equivalent number of HQ and heavies.. are a useful check/balance (beyond just nerve values) to the min- max style firepower that 10 man squad have..
I need a few more games before I work out whats really going on.. today my opinion is that mobile armies that can just do everything with large blobs win..(but that is me being only half a game in :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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World of ME First try at Apoc Batrep WHAT/WHO is AOS?
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:24 am

Quick question.
When a unit of 20 models has lost 20 models.. is it removed?
Is it just continually expected to take a nerve test at -20 until it is routed?
Where is the page reference on removing a unit without it being routed?
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World of ME First try at Apoc Batrep WHAT/WHO is AOS?
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby Baragash » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:41 am

killmaimburn wrote:When a unit of 20 models has lost 20 models.. is it removed?


Units don't "lose models" (and you don't take them off - so there is no -20 limit on Nerve Tests [or whatever the unit size is])). Damage represents a range of things, including deaths, but also disruption, loss of morale, fatigue etc etc

As long as you keep rolling snake eyes at the end of each phase they got damaged then they stay and fight.
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:48 pm

Good grief..I thought I was being a rules lawyering jerk..but actually I was right?
Just to be crystal clear..
A 20 man unit can take 30 damage and not leave the table until failing a nerve test?
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby Baragash » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:21 pm

Correct
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby killmaimburn » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:46 pm

I believe a diagram might come in handy showing my example.. then, the only thing that says that in the rules is the "eventually will fail" in the sentence on taking nerve tests and the absence of any other mechanism (which the first few people (3 games in now) I've played with assume is implied into the set )

My army kicks butt now I'm using indirect, shooty regeneration of the dead and all the other special rules vaguely correctly.. (still not cast dark surge yet..always heal or shooty thus far)
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby mattjgilbert » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:13 am

Wow :)

Most (all?) undead players say that using Dark Surge is key to the undead being viable!

Yes - taking more damage than the unit has models does not automatically trigger removal. Damage and number of models are not correlated 1 to 1. Damage represents morale degradation and fighting viability as well as physical damage.

Good to hear you are having fun :D
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby killmaimburn » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:12 am

My undead chariots turned up this week, (tried to haggle it out through nige but got far too complex posting links to his shop) instead bought 12 undead cavalry +2 chariots (with 2 undead horses each) from some guy on ebay.Nicely painted. Cost £14 (half that being postage).
So
A) that helps my demons.. who desperately needed chariots.
B) Thats my elites stuff filled for my KOW list.. i just need to mod my dragon and a pair of legs with a sorcerer to have one of those hero fellows.. and the rest is just a matter of digging stuff out of storage (and assembling the 80 models).

In what situations does dark surge become vital?
Yes you COULD buy one surger for every big group, but not everything is a big group, so you seperate your forces (I seem to be playing a bit like necrons at the moment even with the cavalry as counter chargers)
You can still double pace for assualts.. and on a 6x4 you should make it when you call it..
Does dark surge work on declared assualts?(I thought you had to be able to reach the enemy to be able to enact a charge so adding an inch is one inch more than required/ waste)
Does shambling not only prevent "at the double" but also the extra movement of charging??
If either of those were true I'd use it lots..but every time I have a choice I'm finding better things to be doing at the moment..although I am still permanoobing and welcome you instructing me on its finer use.
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Re: Questions, batreps, comments on lists etc etc KOW

Postby DaBoss » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:15 am

killmaimburn wrote:In what situations does dark surge become vital?
Yes you COULD buy one surger for every big group, but not everything is a big group, so you seperate your forces (I seem to be playing a bit like necrons at the moment even with the cavalry as counter chargers)
You can still double pace for assualts.. and on a 6x4 you should make it when you call it..
Does dark surge work on declared assualts?(I thought you had to be able to reach the enemy to be able to enact a charge so adding an inch is one inch more than required/ waste)
Does shambling not only prevent "at the double" but also the extra movement of charging??
If either of those were true I'd use it lots..but every time I have a choice I'm finding better things to be doing at the moment..although I am still permanoobing and welcome you instructing me on its finer use.


From what I've played with our group from the Rules.

1) Shambling just stops you from 'double pace move', you still move double distance when charging.
2) Dark Surge can be used on any unit within range - no need to have had to declare a charge, one trick I've learnt is using the units move to move forward and turn to face the opponents flank then Dark Surge into the flank. Need to be close as 50/50 on the dice for each inch.
3) worth having at least one Dark Surger in your force.
4) Only used the Revenant Cavalry in a game once, absolutely devastating - destroyed 3 units of Twilight Kin on the charge (some untis had already taken damage), but having a 16" charge reach is a great advantage.
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