Little bit of list advice please!

IMF2000 · by **IMF2000** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:13 pm

Hi peeps, I'm having a bit of trouble working out how to spec up some of the units below..

The main units I need advice on are the Scouts, Devastator, Terminator and Assault, I'm hoping to get these built up in time for the AOS meet and need an idea on what weapons to use before I can glue them.

Thanks in advance!

Code: Select all: Troops: Tactical Squad 9 Tactical Squad Bolter (x8); Plasmagun (x1) 1 Sergeant Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors Troops: Tactical Squad 9 Tactical Squad Bolter (x8); Meltagun (x1) 1 Sergeant Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors Troops: Tactical Squad 9 Tactical Squad Bolter (x8); Plasmagun (x1) 1 Sergeant Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors Troops: Tactical Squad 9 Tactical Squad Bolter (x8); Flamer (x1) 1 Sergeant Close Combat Weapon (x1); Plasma Pistol (x1); Terminator Honors Troops: Scout Squad 9 Scout Squad Sniper Rifle (x8); Missile Launcher (x1) 1 Sergeant Sniper Rifle Heavy Support: Devastator Squad 9 Devastator Squad Bolter (x5); Heavy Bolter (x1); Lascannon (x1); Multi-Melta (x1); Plasma Cannon (x1) 1 Sergeant Terminator Honors Elite: Terminator Squad 4 Terminator Squad Storm Bolter (x2); Chain Fist (x4); Assault Cannon (x2) 1 Sergeant Thunder Hammer (x2) Fast Attack: Assault Squad 9 Assault Squad Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x7); Close Combat Weapon (x9); Plasma Pistol (x2) 1 Sergeant Jump Packs; Frag Grenades (squad); Plasma Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

timewizard · by **timewizard** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:37 pm

You might want to increase the number of flamers in light of the 5th edition cover rules. I think flamers in general will now be seen in a whole new light! If you added 2 flamers to the assault squad you would have a unit that can get close to the enemy, bring 2 templates to bear, then move in and assault the survivors.
If you are figuring to go against nids or orks, you might want to put a missile launcher or two in the devastator squad. Then you would have stand off and shot them with multiple blasts unit.
Just a couple of quick thoughts.

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:38 am

Just checking its smurfs for...4th and 5th?
Your list is around 1796?
I tend to come across as a tad harsh in list stuff.. but hopefully there are some gems for you to decide whether to follow or not (depending on what other models you have and how much fluff\backdrop rules you use)

Firstly YOU MUST HAVE AN HQ CHOICE.seems like shouting, but really you must have 2 troops choices and 1 HQ to play.

Tact squad 1 fair could benefit from a transport or a long range weapon (e.g. a lascannon)
Tact squad 2 Same
Tact squad 3 Same
Tact squad 4 I wouldn't bother buying termie honours and sticking a plasma pistol on your expensive guy (when will it get used..will it fry himself etc) see below instead?

For all of the above you might look into the trait:cleanse and purify which allows you to take two assualt\special weapons per squad (instead of the long range cannon ones) that might fit what your aiming for.

Scout squad I guess its ok..I've gone off sniper rifles a fair whack... but in 5th they can do some good things..(If you had infinite access to models and were going to play 4th ed, I think 2x5man scouts with bolters and heavy bolters might do you better at 45 points less for the bundle (thats nearly a speeder spare)

Devastater squad hurts mine eyes..I know thats how GW sell them but its so wrong (in 5th firing a heavy bolter + a plasma cannon is actually likely to do LESS damage due to wound wrapping)
+ some links where I've already moaned about mixed dev squads

http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php? ... pic&t=1132
http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php? ... =4998#4998
Basically jack of all trades master of none..
Possibly here..if you want to keep all those weapons (so you don't have to buy anything more etc..just put those heavy weapons in your tactical squads?(Tactical squads are ok as versatile units you only end up wasting bolters meh

)Costs 220 points less too and thats nearly a landraider...
Or yes have a devastater squad but focus on one or two things..e.g. similar ranges (like the plascannon and heavy bolter) or anti infantry heavy bolters and small blast templates or anti tank missile launcher (with the tank hunters trait) or lasscannons (very expensive but does the job)..If you don't focus on that every time you fire you waste half your potential.

Termies..NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOEEESSS! (sorry but really)
Nice squad make up traditional 5 man 2 asspam.. yes have a chainfist maybe 2.But then you jump overboard and make it a 320 point squad, drop 2 chain fists on the charge thats 6 anti tank hits you can make..thunderhammers..very rule of cool..but thats 60 points on the guy who you want to be your ensign dispensible (He doesn't have the fists, he doesn't have the asspam ..he does have different weaponry so yuo can stack and wrap wounds in 5th..heck most bloodangels players tried to kill theres before the game..keep him cheap save yourself some points...

Assualt squad.. good, traditional
I'm not sure when I'd be brave enough to risk my 60+ point guy to a plasma overheat though (might dump that for a simple bolt pistol)..

Potential HQs
A chaplin with jump pack is tradidional to accompany your assualt squad (very deadly 30+ attacks with rerolls to hit on the charge)
You seem to like high leadership.. Vet sergants everywhere including where there arne't fists..Maybe a master with power weapon and bolt pistol (+ other bells and whistles as required?)

On the field (after puppy fat removed) With only 1 lascannon and 1 melta your going to have a problem with AV 14 monoliths, land raiders front of leman russ etc.. and its reliant on your assualt boys and termies getting there..I might be tempted to add 1 or 2 more anti tough tank bits.

How does all that sound?

Ljundhammer · by **Ljundhammer** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:50 am

IMF2000 wrote:Hi peeps, I'm having a bit of trouble working out how to spec up some of the units below..

The main units I need advice on are the Scouts, Devastator, Terminator and Assault, I'm hoping to get these built up in time for the AOS meet and need an idea on what weapons to use before I can glue them.

Ok then, I'll bite. In general the list looks quite slow & probably would benefit from some rhinos. However, I'll leave that up to your playstyle.

Right, lets get stuck into those units!

Thanks in advance!

Code: Select all: Troops: Scout Squad 9 Scout Squad Sniper Rifle (x8); Missile Launcher (x1) 1 Sergeant Sniper Rifle

That's a big squad of scouts! It doesn't seem to have focus, the missile launcher is mainly anti-tank, whilst the rifles are mainly anti-infantry. I assume you are trying to do both jobs with this squad? If that's the case I'd do this:
Scouts x 5 - 4 x sniper rifle, 1 x heavy bolter
Scouts x 5 - 4 x boltgun, 1 x missile launcher
That way, the anti infantry squad uses all it's guns to full effect shooting nasty baddy infantry (all at the same range too - which is nice). The anti-tank squad doesn't have a load of expensive sniper rifles shooting at predators they can't hurt.

Having 2 squads of 5 scouts is also very annoying to the enemy - they aren't worth a great deal of VPs, they pack a nasty punch, and the enemy would rather be shooing something scarier than 5 scouts at most points in the game!

Code: Select all: Heavy Support: Devastator Squad 9 Devastator Squad Bolter (x5); Heavy Bolter (x1); Lascannon (x1); Multi-Melta (x1); Plasma Cannon (x1) 1 Sergeant Terminator Honors

Ok, I really dislike this squad! What is it going to do when you set it down? Right now it's either a bad anti infantry unit (not enough shots), or a bad anti-tank squad (the lascannon's ok). Think what you want this squad to achieve & then tool it as you need it.

As to recomendations - never use lascannons in devestator squads - they are overpriced, keep them in tactical squads. 4 of the same gun is better than a mix (if you are going to use 2 x 5 man combat squads in the next codex, you can use 2 of 2 diferent guns).
So anti-tank is missile launchers x 4 (at a push MM x 4 - I don't like them, but they are AP1 even at 24" so not terrible)
Anti-heavy-infantry is 4 x plasma cannons (which are reallty good now they can barely miss)
Anti-infantry is 4 x heavy bolter - this is how I use mine & I think puts the devestating into devestator squad.

Code: Select all: Elite: Terminator Squad 4 Terminator Squad Storm Bolter (x2); Chain Fist (x4); Assault Cannon (x2) 1 Sergeant Thunder Hammer (x2)

Which codex is this - only DeathWing can mix thunder hammers into normal terminator squads & they can't take 2 assault cannons.

In the next codex you are unlikely to be able to use 2 assault cannons in a squad of less than 10 terminators (seeing as that's comming out soon you'll be ripping arms off!). I'd recommend 1 assault cannon if you are looking longer-term for this army. As to the chain-fists - I've never seen the point, if 4 powerfists won't do it..., but other swear by them, so I'm ambivilant.

Code: Select all: Fast Attack: Assault Squad 9 Assault Squad Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x7); Close Combat Weapon (x9); Plasma Pistol (x2) 1 Sergeant Jump Packs; Frag Grenades (squad); Plasma Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

Nothing wrong with the assault squad. Timewizard is correct on the flamers - however, both the DA & BA codex disallow flamers to normal assault squads - so take your chances on the new SM codex if you like... I've always prefered flamers though

Hope it's helped & good luck. Keep an eye on any SM rumours that come out to try to stop nerfing yourself for the next codex.

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:56 am

He bought 2 thunderhammers for his vet sergant to get the extra attack uner 5th ed rules...he's more fluffy\rule of cool than even you ljundhammer 60 points for a fist with an extra attack

KInG · by **KInG** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:01 am

timewizard wrote:You might want to increase the number of flamers in light of the 5th edition cover rules. I think flamers in general will now be seen in a whole new light! If you added 2 flamers to the assault squad you would have a unit that can get close to the enemy, bring 2 templates to bear, then move in and assault the survivors.
If you are figuring to go against nids or orks, you might want to put a missile launcher or two in the devastator squad. Then you would have stand off and shot them with multiple blasts unit.
Just a couple of quick thoughts.

lol all this sudden love of flamers... they did the same thing in 4th as they do in 5th.

I know there's alot of talk about 5th giving cover saves to people, but that is mainly coz models at range can now be shot thru area terrain.

1). Flamers do not have good range.
2). Area terrain that allows you to shoot thru will be changed to buildings, etc to again block LOS.
3). Unless you move faster than your opponent, he will more than likely charge you or rapid fire you before you use the dam flamer.

Ljundhammer · by **Ljundhammer** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:09 am

killmaimburn wrote:He bought 2 thunderhammers for his vet sergant to get the extra attack uner 5th ed rules...he's more fluffy\rule of cool than even you ljundhammer 60 points for a fist with an extra attack

That's not fluffy, or cool - it's bloody stupid! 60points of wargear to get a +1 attack with a thunder hammer when you already have 4 chainfists? OP - ditch this guy now - he offendeth my sight!

KInG wrote:lol all this sudden love of flamers... they did the same thing in 4th as they do in 5th.

I know there's alot of talk about 5th giving cover saves to people, but that is mainly coz models at range can now be shot thru area terrain.

1). Flamers do not have good range.
2). Area terrain that allows you to shoot thru will be changed to buildings, etc to again block LOS.
3). Unless you move faster than your opponent, he will more than likely charge you or rapid fire you before you use the dam flamer.

Err, it's on an assault squad.

I agree in general though - SMs should only have flamers in rhino-mounted tactical squads or assault squads. That's why it's rediculous that BA & DA regular assault squads can't have them.

killmaimburn · by **killmaimburn** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:19 am

Ljundhammer wrote: it's bloody stupid!

but I thought that was the rule of cool...especially with 5th ed and the sheild of faith compared to all the alternatives possible...anyway I told him to ditch them too (Because I lack the rule of cool :wink:

)

Still say the most important thing is he needs to get an HQ

KInG · by **KInG** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:34 am

Ljundhammer wrote:
KInG wrote:lol all this sudden love of flamers... they did the same thing in 4th as they do in 5th.

I know there's alot of talk about 5th giving cover saves to people, but that is mainly coz models at range can now be shot thru area terrain.

1). Flamers do not have good range.
2). Area terrain that allows you to shoot thru will be changed to buildings, etc to again block LOS.
3). Unless you move faster than your opponent, he will more than likely charge you or rapid fire you before you use the dam flamer.

Err, it's on an assault squad.

I was just really refering to the 1st line of that quote, sorry

Ljundhammer · by **Ljundhammer** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:05 am

killmaimburn wrote:
Ljundhammer wrote: it's bloody stupid!
but I thought that was the rule of cool...especially with 5th ed and the sheild of faith compared to all the alternatives possible...anyway I told him to ditch them too (Because I lack the rule of cool )

There is a difference between non-optimised builds & shooting yourself in the face with a boltgun (or smaking with a pair of hammers in this case) by paying points for no reason... :lol:

But let's not derail this thread... :arrow:

killmaimburn wrote:Still say the most important thing is he needs to get an HQ

Yeah, I can't believe I missed that. :oops:

IMF2000 - get an HQ!

KInG wrote:I was just really refering to the 1st line of that quote, sorry

No problem, I hadn't realised the statement was so sweeping. We appear to both be correct

Brain wibble!

NorseWarrior · by **NorseWarrior** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:51 am

If I had played spacemarines instead of Deathwing and Tau, I would have taken two 5 man squads of scouts, all with sniper rifles and a heavy bolter in each. Sniperrifles will in 5th no longer hit on 2+ but they have gained rendring. Yes, that happens on rolls to wound now, but still it is cool to hunt infantry, heavy armour infantry and light skimmers with.

Angelwing · by **Angelwing** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:01 am

Very quickly add my two pennies.

Devastator squad. Try not to mix the heavy weapons. You dilute the squads worth.
Terminators. Don't put in two assault cannons. That option is almost sure to go with the forthcoming codex. Same for the sergeant with two hammers.

Don't be tempted to use traits that require model changes. Traits will probably be removed or heavily altered in the forthcoming codex.

Basically: keep things simple to future proof your army, or borrow models from buddies for the weekend to make up a two assault cannon terminator squad etc.

timewizard · by **timewizard** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:45 pm

Angelwing wrote:Basically: keep things simple to future proof your army, or borrow models from buddies for the weekend to make up a two assault cannon terminator squad etc.

Or put magnets on your termies, then you can change arms/weapons loadout as you need to.

IMF2000 · by **IMF2000** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:44 pm

Wow wow wow holy sh*t I've been so busy doing other things I forgot to check this thread. Many thanks for the feedback so far - I have not had chance to read it all yet.

I just wanted to make it clear that the units above are not a complete army list - just a collection of units I would like advice on, I will be using elements of the above to make complete lists.

*edit*: Some really good advice here guys GOLD! I have to admit I was very unsure about the devs and termis. I will re-do the units when I get home and throw them back in for final comments

Cheers.