[C:Chaos Daemons] Plague Zombie Horde (Combat Patrol)

[LordMalekTheRedKnight]

just a quick update:

Kate used her Eldar against the Plague Zombies tonight. i used the original list, proxying 3 zombies placed on a 60mm base for the Beast.

it was a very interesting game. bad reserve rolls, mediocre scatters and average Difficult Terrain tests, combined with Kate backing away meant that it took me until turn 5 to actually kill any of her models.

on the plus side, i used the terrain along with my high Toughness, Inv Sv & FNP (combined with some good luck) to keep all my units at or above half strength. i also managed to get 3 packs of Zombies into CC.

the game ended with the last surviving member of the Guardian squad outnumbered 8-1 and passing his Morale test on Ld3 (:!:), and the Dire Avengers losing just 2 models (out of 5). the Jetbikes and Swooping Hawks used their mobility to remain out of CC altogether.

in the end i scored half points for the Guardians = 50 VPs
while Kate scored 0 VPs

this put me just over the 10% mark, for a "Solid Victory".

i had managed to concentrate all of my first wave on one of her flanks, and caused her to back herself into a corner. unfortunately my second wave didnt come in when i really needed it, as i could have gotten her in a pincer and slowed her retreat. the game was a lot of fun though (a definate change of pace), and im happy with my very close fought victory.

thinking towards 5th ed, things will be a bit different. with less dangerous DS and Run moves every turn (including being able to disperse after arriving), the force will get to grips with their prey a lot quicker. if the enemy want to keep up and run as they back away, they wont get to shoot, either. scoring down to the last man will help, too.

im really looking forward to bringing these guys to WHW now.

cheers

~ Tim

[killmaimburn]

im really looking forward to bringing these guys to WHW now.

You can tick the box for that being your competitive list Glad to see your all practising

[LordMalekTheRedKnight]

Glad to see your all practising

cheers

we just had another game, actually. same terrain and armies as before, but we swapped DZs.

i lost the roll for Daemonic Assault (leaving me with the half of the army i didnt want to start with), but some good reserve rolls made up for that.

Kate's Guardians got surrouned and eventually wiped out in the centre of the board, and the Jetbikes got caught up in combat thanks to a lucky Massacre roll. the Dire Avengers got jumped too, near the end of the game. i even managed to get onto the Hawks in the last turn but there were no casualties. in fact, only 1 pack of Zombies failed to make it into CC by the end of the game.

the Jetbikes were pulled out of the sky and the Guardians were eaten alive as they tried to flee. in return, the smaller Zombie pack was reduced below half strength. the Hawks were untouched and the Avengers were above half strength. final scores:
- Plague Zombies = 176 VPs
- Eldar = 37.5 VPs
= "Solid Victory" to the Plague Zombies.

this one actually felt like a win (the other was so close it felt more like a draw).

thinking towards 5th ed again: the changes to SAP will help the Zombies a great deal - they will get double the number of attacks when charging with virtually no downsides (when fighting Init2 in the open, they will go last instead of simultaneously). one negative point though is the inability to consolidate from one unit directly into another (not that its happened for them yet anyway). CC Ld Mods working off casualties rather than outnumbering will help them though, as their small units are unlikely to outnumber anyone (infact, i had to take a No Retreat save against the DAs today, as they outnumbered me!).

can anyone think of any other 5th ed rules that will be especially beneficial/detrimental to my Zombies?

cheers

~ Tim

[killmaimburn]

Deepstrike and then run to avoid plasma blasts
(which will hurt more as they'll eat through your FNP)

As I said in the cover one scattering into terriain losing blokes wil be big (although you are fearless so you won't run straight off)

hurting rhinos etc becomes so much easier..
Only having troops and them all being on objectives and T5 will create a monster to get by\clear objectives (as I said its like my nurgle raptors but with the downsides gone )
rerolling to wound nearly all the time

How long do you want as a list?

[LordMalekTheRedKnight]

As I said in the cover one scattering into terriain losing blokes wil be big (although you are fearless so you won't run straight off)

i was wondering about that: is it the whole squad that tests, or only the models that actually land in the DT?

rerolling to wound nearly all the time

is that when your S is better than their T, or does it also include when it is equal to it as well?
(against Kate's Eldar, i didnt actually use my poisoned attacks on the Plague Zombies as their basic S is better vs T3 getting re-rolls in 5th is going to be great!)

cheers

~ Tim

[timewizard]

As I said in the cover one scattering into terriain losing blokes wil be big (although you are fearless so you won't run straight off)

i was wondering about that: is it the whole squad that tests, or only the models that actually land in the DT?

In 4th, if the unit moves through dangerous terrain, you test for each model in the unit. In 5th, well I should find out sometime between now and 5:00 PM EDT!

[killmaimburn]

Same or higher p 42
p14 for every model on dangerous terrain (so not the whole squad unless it all lands in it)

[LordMalekTheRedKnight]

In 4th, if the unit moves through dangerous terrain, you test for each model in the unit.

thats for peices of Dangerous Terrain - when a unit treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous, then its only the models that are in it that test.

for example, if you declare a spiked pit as Dangerous Terrain, and one model in a unit moves into it, then the whole unit tests. however, if you declare a wood as Difficult Terrain and 1 biker out of a squadron drives into it, only he tests (the rest of the unit do not).
(see the Unit Type rules)

Same or higher p 42
p14 for every model on dangerous terrain (so not thwhole squad unless it all lands in it)

coolies. gets better and better for the Zombies...

cheers!

~ Tim

[timewizard]

In 4th, if the unit moves through dangerous terrain, you test for each model in the unit.

thats for peices of Dangerous Terrain - when a unit treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous, then its only the models that are in it that test. for example, if you declare a spiked pit as Dangerous Terrain, and one model in a unit moves into it, then the whole unit tests. however, if you declare a wood as Difficult Terrain and 1 biker out of a squadron drives into it, only he tests (the rest of the unit do not). (see the Unit Type rules) ~ Tim

Yes, for the unit type rules. In 5th, you test for every model that has moved through dangerous terrain, not the entire unit. Plus it is for one or more area of dangerous terrain, so your zombies can run over three spiked pits, and only have to take one test!
Oh, BTW, my package has arrived, I have the new rulebook in hand. Told my family I will see them again some time this week!

[LordMalekTheRedKnight]

hey guys - i need your help

the SoB player i fought this week pointed out that he could fit 2 Penitent Engines in a 5th ed CP force. i wasnt too worried until i realised that i cannot actually hurt them!

so, what do you suggest i do? they wound me on 2's and ignore my FNP, and with AV11 i cannot even glance them!

im not changing my list, and i dont want to refuse to play them, but i would like to have some sort of fighting chance.

i was thinking that maybe i could tarpit each of them with a unit of Zombies, hope to make it to the end of the game, and then hunt the rest of his force (Strom Troopers & Priest, AFAIK) with the rest of my army. that way i might still pull off a win on KP (as long as he rolls low for his Attacks and i roll well for my Inv Saves, and i hope for an early finish ).

any other thoughts? with Holy Rage vs my SAP its not like i can even outrun him and lead them by the nose (although maybe i could draw them away from the rest of the battle with lucky scatters).

to be honest, i would be happy with a Draw, considering the circumstances...

cheers in advance for any help/suggestions

~ Tim

[killmaimburn]

Actually i think me and ljundhammer managed to work out a way of getting 3-4 into a (baby ) CP list as its mandatory unit isn't required by CP rules etc..
Well your playing mono maxxed..expect to find a rock that smashes your scissors .If you go back to the argument about what was competitative in CP and i said it was such a broken dynamic ...I did actually specifically bring up that 2+ pentitent engines were my knightmare( ) but only as much as tornado spam and nurgle based stuff is.
As a practical input you could A) diversify with fluffy alternatives and other counts as's, B) swap out your fen beast (and mess with unit sizes of your cores) for a herald or a fiend with some limited anti tank and to offset your 'downside' ( ) C) accept your army has 1 weakness and lose when people realise it and take that

You can't tarpit in 5th..combat moves too fast

[LordMalekTheRedKnight]

Actually i think me and ljundhammer managed to work out a way of getting 3-4 into a (baby ) CP list as its mandatory unit isn't required by CP rules etc..

hmm, i wouldnt have interepreted it that way... personally i would never consider taking Arcos/Penitent Engines without a Priest (or an Assassin w/out an Inq).

As a practical input you could ... accept your army has 1 weakness and lose when people realise it and take that

very constructive.
i guess i should just roll over and die then.

(anyway, last time i checked, having no ranged attacks and SAP was quite a weakness too )

You can't tarpit in 5th..combat moves too fast

i managed it OK vs. the Sisters (held up 2 squads with one pack of Zombies, which they still didnt wipe out by the time my other 2 units arrived to chase them off).

some rough Math-hammer:
Penitents get 3.5 A a turn
thats 1.75 hits vs equal WS
thats 1.5 W vs T5
Inv Saves save 1/3
so thats 1 dead Zombie per CC phase
i take 1 further Save from No Retreat
after Inv Saves and FNP, thats one extra Zombie dead every 3 rounds

so after 3 rounds, on average, i will lose 4 Zombies to each Penitent Engine. a 6 model Zombie pack should be able to hold up a Penitent Engine for 3 game turns (with average rolls - a bit of luck and i might last longer). if i manage to lead them away from the rest of the force, that could waste another turn getting back to the action. factor in a reasonable chance of going second (thereby wasting the first WH turn), and a chance of the game ending on Turn 5, and its not looking at all impossible.

if i can kill 2 units without the Penitent Engines killing more than one Zombie Pack each, i will get a Draw. if i can kill just 1 unit without losing all my tarpit Zombies, then i might even win.

heck i could just DS one pack of Zombies near something juicy and take that out, and play hard to get with all my other units, and get a Draw.

heres something else i thought of:
what if i get the Penitent Engines into a Multiple Combat involving units i can hurt? i can win the combat that way, right? do the Walkers take damage from No Retreat? (ive not read that section yet)

cheers

~ Tim

[killmaimburn]

heres something else i thought of:
what if i get the Penitent Engines into a Multiple Combat involving units i can hurt? i can win the combat that way, right? do the Walkers take damage from No Retreat? (ive not read that section yet)

nope

Penitents get 3.5 A a turn

They get d6 +1 on the charge +ranged. + for each attack you scale down remember to also amend the no retreat wounds too (you need an accountant to run the longer math (I' get slowed down and have a baby crying to much to run it right now)
re the fluff bottom left hand corner about armoured fists- you could have demon spawned into a repentia workshop

[LordMalekTheRedKnight]

do the Walkers take damage from No Retreat?

nope

poo.
(just read it)

Penitents get 3.5 A a turn

They get d6 +1 on the charge +ranged. + for each attack you scale down remember to also amend the no retreat wounds too (you need an accountant to run the longer math

OK, i didnt account for Charge bonuses (not sure who will charge who - even though he is faster he has to come straight at me as quickly as he can, so might leave himself in charge range). also, if he chooses to Run he wont be able to shoot (and im not really scared of Flamers anyway ).

but whats wrong with my No Retreat calculations?

on average he will kill 1 model a turn, so i will lose by 1 and have to take 1 save. i get 5+ Inv then 4+ FNP, so i lose 1 model for every 3 saves i must attempt.

(I' get slowed down and have a baby crying to much to run it right now)

talking of, i need to go change a nappy.

cheers

~ Tim

[killmaimburn]

I hate having to have so many things open at once....
I'll be back in a mo with an alternative view
Here you go
He rages forwards (not running) gets 4.5 attacks per engine (we'll go by your rather modest 2). so 9 attacks
(That can be allocated and split anyway they wish in a mutltiple combat p41 that was fairly important in a game last night where I had a mighted librarian with 7 attacks)
Penitents are WS4, you are ws 3...so 3s=so 6 get through. of that 1 will fail to wound
you cannot balance the combat out.. you've lost around 3.33 men so your remaining blokes takes 3+amount of saves (IRRC) 1 saved (removed the important bits after the decimal point for inaccuracy) 2 need feel no pain, 1 fails first round=4.xx men die per round they charge
You see how just a subtle change in tactics will have him walk through a squad a turn.
And thats whilst the other 240 points are shooting at your boys cowering at the back