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5th ed Combat Patrol

For discussing new rules and changes to the current rules, such as new homebrew datasheets for Apocalypse

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:50 pm

cheers mate - an interesting read. :)

killmaimburn wrote:You may include selections with more than two wounds at the normal point cost, but you must change the number of wounds in model’s profile to two.
..
Necron phase out removed (they can't have acces to the ressie orb either so it balances out and if we strip off phase out someone might actually play as necrons in a CP for once..

dont those 2 contradict eachother? afterall, you could take a Lord (2W) w/Res Orb... :?

~ Tim
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Postby killmaimburn » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:52 pm

Ahh but necrons don't have feel no pain..and are soo much cooler than those daft models with invulnerables and then feel no pains and then dodge saves :P :P :P :P :P (No I can't really make necrons work... they should be added to the pile of the last point)
That way you'd get 10 warriors and a 2 wound lord 1 heavy destroyer in 400points (I think i might be able to take that :D)
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:58 pm

personally im not too keen on Farseers, Chaos Lords etc in CP games, even with just 2W. its not the number of Wounds that is really the problem - IMO its the fact that models with more than 2W tend to be big and nasty (so Wounds is used as a rough measure of power).

i would rather:
- a list of 3W models that are allowed, on a case by case basis
- a 2W mid-level hero for each army that doesnt already have one

for example, a "Guardian Captain" (Eldar), a "Tombkeeper" (Necrons), etc, with stats, weapons and wargear somewhere between normal models and proper 3W HQs.

~ Tim
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Postby killmaimburn » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:13 pm

Farseers- you can already have warlocks- putting money into a farseer prevents you having your 10ml of anything else...and your cutting off a wound.(that hurts especially the ones who count their wounds who rely on eternal warriors etc)
Chaos lords.. With the 5th ed changes and not being able to pin ball.. the famous chaos lieutenant of doom that used to haunt CP is no more (as he has to be exposed and at most can eat one unit).. + 4th ed codex the guy costs 150 ish points and will never have better than a 3+ save and 2 wounds (you could take out 3 rhinos\attack bikes of points with 6 bolter wounds. :D
I'll agree that certain things stand out as odd... but for every choice there is a repurcussion..if you choose to take them you get one ..damaged/ and bloated compared to the size of your army.(herohammer :D )
If you look for exclusionary fluff I prefer the ones where folks say no heavies ever ever..because you might have an assasination on a VIP farseer by cage and his psychos..
I wouldn't opt to take an HQ because it would be tactically dumb in most scenarios at 400 points twinned with the mandatory troops choice.(its natural selection..and it lets people take scarab swarms)
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:27 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Farseers- you can already have warlocks- putting money into a farseer prevents you having your 10ml of anything else...and your cutting off a wound

well a base Farseer is only 40 pts... thats not very much at all.

killmaimburn wrote:Chaos lords.. With the 5th ed changes and not being able to pin ball.. the famous chaos lieutenant of doom that used to haunt CP is no more (as he has to be exposed and at most can eat one unit)..

just to be clear, it was more about them fitting in to the idea behind a patrol than then being overpowered (although i would hazard a guess that they would be anyway).

when a Farseer or Chaos lord is seen in a 1000-1500 pt battle we can kinda pass it off as saying the tabletop represents the focal point of a much much bigger battle. in a 400 pt patrol? that doesnt feel right. :(

killmaimburn wrote:and it lets people take scarab swarms

well Scarabs would be a unit i would allow (if i was making a list of allowed 3W units, on a case by case basis). i would rather a rule that said: "the following 3+W units are allowed:...", than one that says: "any 3+W unit is allowed, as long as you drop it to 2W." :)

~ Tim
p.s. im planning on using an Ogryn Bodyguard ("counts as" Nork Deddog) for a special assassination scenario, and im working on Creature Feature rules for bigger beasties to be hunted too (Giant Scorpion, King Rat etc). 8)
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Postby killmaimburn » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:40 am

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:well a base Farseer is only 40 pts... thats not very much at all.
55 and thats naked, how many people you seen run naked farseers..ever. A cheap one is around 80 points. (and remember he's got 2 wounds at t3 with a 4+ (no FNP..not even eternal) and can be targetted now..he's going down very very quickly)
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:when a Farseer or Chaos lord is seen in a 1000-1500 pt battle we can kinda pass it off as saying the tabletop represents the focal point of a much much bigger battle. in a 400 pt patrol? that doesnt feel right. :(
I think your view of combat patrol too arbitrary..prescriptive.In standard battles you'd (if you followed that chain of thought through) be the bloke who house ruled banning marneus\abbadon eldrad etc. There is always a reason for something to be there, heck they have already taken a wound..maybe the apothecarys got lost walking him back from the front and walked into an enemy scouting squad.
The rules as set down have said nothing about *no HQ* they have always been 0-1, they then took away the chaos option (and a few other races) because to many people took speed str and cheap infiltrate pwr weapon, 90 points to pinball and ransack whole armies (he could actually be made better but again as I said most people wanted the points spread out more) but the pinball is gone,cheap first turn assualts are gone and most models cost more than that base now.
If a 2 wound HQ isn't allowed does that mean that you would get rid of the ability of smurfs to take a reclusiarch (after all they only lack the other wound)
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:05 am

killmaimburn wrote:In standard battles you'd (if you followed that chain of thought through) be the bloke who house ruled banning marneus\abbadon eldrad etc.

will i did say we can pass it off as the game being just the focal point of a much bigger battle... ;)

killmaimburn wrote:There is always a reason for something to be there, heck they have already taken a wound..maybe the apothecarys got lost walking him back from the front and walked into an enemy scouting squad.

i suppose there are ways of justifying it, yeah. i'd rather keep something like that as a special scenario, though.

killmaimburn wrote:If a 2 wound HQ isn't allowed does that mean that you would get rid of the ability of smurfs to take a reclusiarch (after all they only lack the other wound)

well he does have 1 less point of Ld too... but i do see your point.

like i said though, i would be much more comfortable with homebrewing mid-level ICs to fill the the gaps for those books that dont already have any. im not in anyway against all armies being able to field a CP-legal HQ choice.

anyway, we have (both) gone a little off topic. :P

we are supposed to be discussing how CP & 5th ed should interact. :)

so far i have played one 5th ed CP game (batrep). we used:
- normal CP restrictions, @ 400pts
- 12" DZ
- 5th ed deployment roll-off rules (inc. STI)
- Kill Points
and it was nice and straight forward.

once i have learnt all the rules though i think i would want to branch out and try the full mission rules (random DZ shape, random objective).

cheers :)

~ Tim
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Postby timewizard » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:48 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:once i have learnt all the rules though i think i would want to branch out and try the full mission rules (random DZ shape, random objective).
cheers :)
~ Tim


Looking forward to reading the batreps on those games. Question though, are you going to play on the recommended (for CP) 4'X4' table or go the full sized (6'X4') version?
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:02 pm

timewizard wrote:Question though, are you going to play on the recommended (for CP) 4'X4' table or go the full sized (6'X4') version?

well i normally play on 4x4 (as thats what we have at home), and my 1st (and only) 5th ed game was on 4x4 too (not that we needed it :P). plus smaller tables means more room for more games, and/or more room for books/deadpile/reserves/etc outside the play area. i would have read up on the specifics of the mission - does having a square board cause any problems? (as long as you declare 2 opposite edges as "the long ones") :?:

cheers :)

~ Tim
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Postby timewizard » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:08 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:does having a square board cause any problems? (as long as you declare 2 opposite edges as "the long ones") :?:
cheers :)
~ Tim


I think not, page 88 states that if you are playing a game with larger or smaller point limits, you might want to consider larger or smaller game surfaces (makes sense, there's probably no way you could play apoc on a 6X4 table :lol: ).
It goes on to say that no matter the size and shape of your table, it's important to establish the different table edges. I bet you could use something like a 32mm die to mark your table edge :roll: :wink:
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Postby Antubis » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:09 pm

I definitely need a small table area for the cp list I've got for the meet: two 6 man strong units, one Noise Marines, one Rubric. 8O
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Postby killmaimburn » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:02 am

Antubis wrote:I definitely need a small table area for the cp list I've got for the meet: two 6 man strong units, one Noise Marines, one Rubric. 8O
I'm surprised you managed to get a second unit in, the chaos codex really can't operate combat patrols at 400.I remember back before the new codex you could have 3 alpha legion squads and an IC and still have change for the bus home.
Good luck. :D
I don't think they have 4x4 tables at WHW (unless they are stuck by the blood bowl and thingy table off in that dark corner bit (sometimes its there sometimes its not)..
I figure a good table solution would be 4 hardcore to the death CPers vs me, and my single 1500 FOC filler army (make up whatever fluff you will multiple raiding parties storming an barracks etc)...That way everyone else has enough room to tango :lol:
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:24 am

killmaimburn wrote:I'm surprised you managed to get a second unit in, the chaos codex really can't operate combat patrols at 400.

i managed to get a 2nd unit in my 1Ksons list... :P

killmaimburn wrote:I don't think they have 4x4 tables at WHW

if there arent, we will just use 6' x 4' s and mark off a 2' strip down one side (good for keeping lists, books, dead pile/reserves etc). if the Terrain set is fixed per table, this will give us higher terrain density too. :D

~ Tim
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Postby killmaimburn » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:55 am

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i managed to get a 2nd unit in my 1Ksons list... :P
And that list could be pwnd by a drunken womble who by accident kicked dice on a stroll through the countryside.
In fact by request i'll play my "meh" card
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Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:53 pm

I think this sums up combat patrol ;)
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My reasoned thoughts on combat patrol
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