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Toughest Squad

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Postby Gymbol » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:33 pm

So then, how would you fight the squad you've posted using a generic army? Throwing one tough squad against another may not work well for you.

Against the wraithguards you need 2 small squads to suffer the 4 wounds the wraiths deal out without breaking and running, and a total of 8 str 5 power weapon attacks to finish them off before 'game over' time.
The rule of 40k is "most special rules winzzors (unless your grey knights)" so sayeth me.

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Postby KInG » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:34 pm

the ultimate tarpit for shooting and CC

50 conscripts with a Commisar Yarrick who IRC makes them fearless

hahahahahahah :D:D:D:D:D:D

EDIT: these guys don't try to kill ur Wraithguard, they just tie them up in CC for the whole game ;)

200pts for 50 men and 146pts for the other man.
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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:42 am

But king surely leadership 10 no modifiers allowed is better than suffering no retreat wounds- you could lose 9 more guys a turn after taking massive wounds in combat (thats why stubborn is awesome for gribbly units in 5th)

Wraithguard- Take out the spirit seer. keep your distance..I'd take sternguard (with wound on 2s weaponry) and just dakka the snot out of them.

My hordes (LATD and conscript) fall very quickly to a 2 flamer assualt squad (1 grey night with its heavy flamer thing once killed 15 mutants in one turn)
60 boyz, especially since they require each other for cover- are asking for pie plates- my standard 2 whirlwinds and a vindie will wipe out all of them in a go if the dice are right and the coherancy is tight. Don't let any of them near close combat.

10 chaos termies- chaos termies cannot stand against imperial termies.they are anti troop an anti silly things- you put 10 chaos termies (normally with 3 fists) vs 10 imperial termies (with 2 asscannons and all fists, maybe a chaplin too) and chaos termies melt away (but the imperial termies cost alot more for being ablt to do that and in most circumstances just get walked around.

Necrons get into CC
Nid warriors don't have a very good save so just focus massed fire (heavy bolters etc)

Most can be beaten by just of the non fast non horde ones can just be outshot by tau and taken out by the same points-the only question is if you can get there to stop them shooting.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:54 am

best thing against the Plaguebearers would probably be a Dev squad with 4 Plasma Cannons (and a Signum under new codex?) or something mounting a Demolisher Cannon: wounding on 2's, ignoring FNP, and hitting a ton as they will be bunched up when they DS. or maybe charge a AV11+ Walker with DCCWs (Penitent Engines, Dreads, Defilers etc), as they cannot hurt it. would take a long time to wipe them out that way though, as they get FNP vs No Retreat.

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:23 am

Or a wave of banshees charging them. (they're going to kill an awfull lot of you before you think about using those 3 attacks back)
or tau plasma weaponry (since plasma cannon dev is about 40point (not counting ablatives) oblits and battlesuits are viable alternatives point for pew pew)
Or the alrounder chaos termies with power weapons and combi plas (although then on point for point it becomes a gamble)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:30 am

killmaimburn wrote:Or a wave of banshees charging them. (they're going to kill an awfull lot of you before you think about using those 3 attacks back)

315 pts = 19 Banshees
57A on the charge (3 each)
38 hits (3's)
6.33 wounds (6's)
= 4 dead Plaguebearers (5+ Inv)

16 Plaguebearers left
16 A
8 hits (4+)
6 (4+ reroll)
= 3 dead Banshees

OK, the Banshees win the first round, but have only killed 4 models (with just a 1 in 3 chance of another kill from No Retreat)

next round:
16 Banshees left
32 A
21.33 hits
3.55 wounds
= 2 dead Plaguebearers

14 Plaguebearers left
14 A
7 hit
5.25 wound
= 3 dead Banshees

= Banshees test @ Ld8

even if the Banshees pass their test, and keep passing them every turn, its going to take quite a while before they wipe out the Plaguebearers at this rate.

now, Exarchs might be able to swing it in their favour, but thats going to eat up points (care to pick some and Math-hammer it?).

killmaimburn wrote:or tau plasma weaponry (since plasma cannon dev is about 40point (not counting ablatives) oblits and battlesuits are viable alternatives point for pew pew)

thing is Tau plasma isnt Blast, so wont score anywhere near as many hits on a tightly bunched unit (even Running can only help so much when 20 models DS). plus its only S6, so wont wound on 2's. :P

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:51 am

Edited after changing CRT.
I did it based on 10 each and though slightly more favourable than the odds you list- yes the banshee thing was a bit of a hiccup I think I’d assumed their would be a doom seer in a general army or that to wound was better could be tilted :? :lol: . (but that still doesn't win the battle (the exarch is a waste in the bigger scheme 23 points more for 2 more attacks.. generally games you'd rather have the 3 more attacks that 16 points provide.)
but plasma blast is not the win all (the odds of scatter the lack of resilience in a pure plasma cannon dev squad (I don't think I've ever seen a 5 man 4 plascannon squad) compared to the options for the same points of fully equipped battlesuits or oblits(2.5 of them to be precise with a 2+ 5+ and fists to fight you off in the meta game ring and all the other all comers all situations weaponry).In fact if you insist on plasma cannons 2 chaos dread with them only cost 15 points more than a 5 man min plasma cannon squad,basically what a plasma cannon dev squad can do other things can do better and yes I grotcheds it with the banshees (darned maths :P).Its what I get for playing MR6 its not just a clever name- I've seen his banshees chew through a nurgle termie squad in one round 8O

Arrghh now the fonts are all fuzzy poopy :(
Last edited by killmaimburn on Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:11 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:13 am

killmaimburn wrote:I'a assumesd their be a doom seer in a general army.

maybe i should have included a Tally bonus then. ;)

killmaimburn wrote:the exarch is a waste in the bigger scheme 23 points more for 2 more attacks.. generally games you'd rather have the 3 more attacks that 16 points provide.

i was thinking more about the S5 Power Weapon... (wounds on 4's rather than 6's, so every Exarch attack is worth 3 Banshee attacks)

killmaimburn wrote:but plasma blast is nothing (the odds of scatter the lack of resilience in a pure plasma cannon dev squad (I don't thinkk I've ever seen a 5 man 4 plascannon squad)

you should be able to get 5 Plasma Cannons spread over 2 x 5 man squads (new codex) for 315 pts if my maths are right - although if taken as part of a bigger force, the cost per Cannon is lower.

i would have thought that missing wouldnt be much of an issue with BS4, no partials, and a 20 model unit. :?

killmaimburn wrote: compared to the options for the same points of fully equipped battlesuits or oblits(2.5 of them to be precise with a 2+ 5+ and fists to fight you off in the meta game ring and all the other all comers all situations weaponry) (now a havoc squad with 4 plasma guns in a rhino... now your talking i used to run one of them with kai gun on board as well.).. basically what a plasma cannon dev squad can do other things *can* do better and yes I grotcheds it with the banshees (darned maths :P).

Tau plasma is still only S6 though (every 6 hits scores 1 less wound than Imperial/Chaos plasma).

and if Chaos fire twice with their Plasma Guns then that leaves them within charge range (potentially) next turn. and if they stay out of charge range thats only 1 shot each (every 3 models score 2 hits, killing 1.6 Plaguebearers).

damn, i want to get some models and some dice now and try out the Plasma Cannons. :twisted:

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:40 am

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:maybe i should have included a Tally bonus then. ;)
Well Baragash did tell you too, but i would work to the idea that your shock wave troops (as you have never mentioned the DPs etc) would be assualted on landing and they woulnd't have tallied up yet. Whereas a power can always be activated if basic criteria are met.
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:i was thinking more about the S5 Power Weapon... (wounds on 4's rather than 6's, so every Exarch attack is worth 3 Banshee attacks)
only against them.. against meq and the rest it is a non viable tailoring.=Non general army =fails criteria :wink:
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:you should be able to get 5 Plasma Cannons spread over 2 x 5 man squads (new codex) for 315 pts if my maths are right
305 by my reckoning,I'd prefer 4 obliterators given basic coherancy, and bare in mind that 2 whirlwinds and a vindicator only cost 285

Chaos wants to get into to you, they can tarpit better than you afterwards.(especially when your talking about 300 points worth of chaos termie)
Tau weaponry are you including the proper battlesuit builds in your maths (the 3rd shots by other weapon systems etc) I'm crap on tau clique terminology is it death rain or mosbros...
Last edited by killmaimburn on Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:18 am

killmaimburn wrote:I'm crap on tau clique terminology is it death rain or mosbros...


Tau rent their crisis suits? 8O

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:30 am

Well you knew that whole greater good thing was a myth .. its like nasty management techniques they hot desk their suits....I got one last week still had jeremys toe in it from the night before.. I shouted at the guy in charge of suit cleaning but he was avespid.. I think he thought I was offering to gestate his younglings
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:38 am

killmaimburn wrote:but i would work to the idea that your shock wave troops (as you have never mentioned the DPs etc) would be assualted on landing and they woulnd't have tallied up yet. Whereas a power can always be activated if basic criteria are met.

although both do rely on models not included in the listed points cost... (unless you want to pay for the Farseer out of the 315? ;)).

besides, a unit in the 2nd wave of Daemons could come in during any turn (by which point Tally might well be maxed), and even if they came down as part of the 1st wave in the first turn, by the end of the first round the Tally could be in effect.

but i left it out because i hadnt paint for him out of my 315. :)

killmaimburn wrote:only against them.. against meq and the rest it is a non viable tailoring.=Non general army =fails criteria :wink:

has someone crunched the numbers on this? you sure wounding MEQs on 5's is better than wounding on 3's (with a chance against Vehicles) due to the other factors (Attacks, pts etc)?

killmaimburn wrote:Chaos wants to get into to you, they can tarpit better than you afterwards.(especially when your talking about 300 points worth of chaos termie)

pick a squad and run the Math. :)

killmaimburn wrote:Tau weaponry are you including the proper battlesuit builds in your maths (the 3rd shots by other weapon systems etc)

no, it was just a straight comparison between S6 / S7 vs T5.

one advantage the Tau would have is JSJ: barring other units, Terrain and the board edge, they could always fire at close range while keeping out of charge range afterwards, so the Plaguebearers could never hit back. in a real game though these things would be a consideration, as would game length and Cover Saves. even in the open, S6 Plasma needs 45 hits to kill 20 T5 5+ Inv models (with BS4 and Twin Linked, whats that - 51 shots?).

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:53 am

Lok I said the banshee vs your super cheese combat patrol was in error. however the supporting roll of a CC unit that has deepstruck IS limited. hence the incredible demon player drop off.

TIM wrote:has someone crunched the numbers on this? you sure wounding MEQs on 5's is better than wounding on 3's (with a chance against Vehicles) due to the other factors (Attacks, pts etc)?
getting a 6 to hit a vehicle and then a 5 to wound would be a waste of the squad and leave them exposed..here is a some brief math
22 points more for the same number of attacks on the charge, 1 will still miss,=2 chances to wound St5 vt4) 1.3.. get through requireing a save of some sort
Instead have 2 banshees (and save 6 points) 2 will miss, 4 chances to wound 1.3... get through requiring a save and this way you have an abalative and more dice.(and its cheaper and can benifit more from doom and other stat changers such as going up against geq)

tim wrote:no, it was just a straight comparison between S6 / S7 vs T5.
so thats like me not accounting for your 4th and 5th plasma cannon as suits get a secondry weapon.(and the optimal build is famous for how much death it can chuck out)
I'll do some chaosy math after lunch
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:24 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Instead have 2 banshees (and save 6 points) 2 will miss, 4 chances to wound 1.3... get through requiring a save and this way you have an abalative and more dice.(and its cheaper and can benifit more from doom and other stat changers such as going up against geq)

although you do have the higher Init and better Sv of the Exarch, and a Complex Unit for wound wastage. so i suppose both have their benefits and drawbacks...

i was just wondering whether it was a documented thing (like Asscannons vs Lascannons in 4th). :)

killmaimburn wrote:I'll do some chaosy math after lunch

once Seth goes up for his nap i will get some models out and try the Plasma Cannons. :twisted:

cheers :)

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:31 pm

Higher intiative (banshee mask) better save- vs a whole extra model (yeah I guess the potential of many extra saves makes it- however its more of a gamble. can you make 1 3+ or 2x4+=s but then the math gets a little complex as a factor even for me)..
And that 6 points saved did just make room in your army for that second falcon
I haven't bothered with using other peoples research..I only trust my own generally (or culvens :))
Remember when trying to always max coherancy as much as possible
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