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Toughest Squad

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:19 pm

Don't worry Gymbol, we don't do this often :D , feel free to drage the topic back as and when you want 8)

Ok so my maths suck. (i change the way I do it half way through but that stays evenly for both parties so it should still convey the idea if not standing up to someone running the maths to a harder standard). I'd suggest not C+Ping them to win an argument as most people will say .. thats 0.7555 not 0.74555 etc (and i tended to ignore tha vast wealth of recurring numbers mathhammer always throws up so as to keep the numbers listed)
If your going to say MATHS again tim I think its time someone took seriously my requests for us to host a decent combat calculator :D

Sketched out 3 scenarios1) basic termies charge, 2) plague bearers charge 3) 3 termies buy powerfists and drop one termie.

1ST termies charge
20 plague bearers vs 10 Chaos marines (we'll keep it nice and simple no mark and no extra spent on shooting)
Termies shoot- 20 shots 13.3 hit plus rerolls=17.8 hits, 5.96 wounds (we'll call it 2 saved to round everything back up) 2 fail feel no pain.
on charge get 30 attacks 20 get through,6.7 wounds 4.46 die

14 plaguebearers-7 hit, 3.5 wound= 0.58 wounds to termie squad
You lost combat by 4 wounds=1.333 die from no retreat (after invulnerables and feel no pain)

Round 2

9.4 terminators vs 12.7 plague bearers (for the maths angle I'll round up the wounds on both until the end)
13.33 hits, 4.44 wounds 2.96 unsaved and die
9 plague bearers hit 6 times wound 3 times 0.5 dies
So I'll knock the remainders off here- meaning termies lose 1 guy plague bearers lost 3
2 no retreats (it would be without the remainders off as well)-1.3 get passed save 0.666.. recurring dead.

Round 3
9 terminators vs 9.4 plague bearers.
termies- 12 hit, 4 wound-2.6 recuring wounds
10 plague bearers... 5 hit, 2.5 wound=0.416 damage
plaguebearers on 7 bodies, termies on 8.59
plague bearers save 1, and fail to feel no pain 1 of 2 remaining

Round 4 Termie models= 8.59, plague bearers on 6 bodies and it tidies up from there with termies ending..

2nd plague bearers charge

Termies go first, 13.33 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.96 unsaved and die
Plague bearers 18 guys, 9 hit 4.5 wound=0.75 wounds
You lost by 2..,1.3 get through..0.66 recuring wounds..
We'll round it down 2.96 +0.66 (3.62) off the plaguebearers 0.75 off termies

Round 2
Termies (9.25 remain) 13.33 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.96 unsaved and die
Plague bearers (14.38 models call it 15) 3.75 wounds, 0.625 wounds
You lose by 2 (ish),0.66 fails the totality of no retreatedness
=Termies on 8.62 Plague bearers on 10.75

Round 3
termies 12 hit, 4 wound-2.6 recuring wdamage
Plaguebearers (rounding up) =5.5 hitscause 2.75 wounds=0.4588 damage
You lost by 2=0.66 fails the totality of no retreatedness
=Termies=8.17 PLaguebearers=6.222


Round 4 carries on till termies win

3rd with fists
Alt 3(alternate build here I give 3 terminators fists, as most chaos folks will say 1 in 3 should be a fist- at the cost of 1 terminator) but to even up neither side charges they just appear locked together magically- I can't be arsed to run the mirror numbers.

int4 6 guys 12 attacks, 8 hit 2.66 wounds=1.77777 damage
PBers-19 guys(9.5 hit),4.75 wounds,0.7925 damage
Fists 4 hit=3.3333 wound=2.2222 damage
total combat damage chaos=3.999999, PBers 0.79, you lose by 3= lose a wound after all the saves

Round two PBers on 15.1 chaos on 8.3
int4 6 guys 12 attacks, 8 hit 2.66 wounds=1.77777 damage
(pretend 16 as I've done all way through) 8 hit 4 wound=0.6666 damage
Fists 4 hit=3.3333 wound=2.2222 damage
total combat damage chaos=3.999999, PBers 0.66,you lose by 3= lose a wound after all the saves

Round 3 PBers on 10.01 (ish) chaos on 7.7 (lost a power weapon)
int4 5 guys 10 attacks, 6.666 hit 2.22 wounds=1.481481481 damage
(I think we can call 10.01= 10) 5 hit,2.5 wound=0.41666 damage
Fists 4 hit=3.3333 wound=2.2222 damage
total combat damage chaos=3.703681481 PBers 0.4166 you lose by 3= lose a wound after all the saves

round 4 PBers on 5.31 models Termies on 7.28334 models and tidy up from there.

I think possibly icon of khorne might actually have the edge over 3 fists (as it seems by these maths to add 10 attacks to all 3 of the first rounds which is 2.222 attacks (yes that looks the same as the fists but remember that this doesn't include the basic termie who are no longer holding fists attacks on top.)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:38 pm

The calculator I liked has been pulled from here (he advertised it everywhere (at least 8 sites), but then took it down a while back)
http://www.ttsgosadow.nl/e107/news.php
But
http://members.optushome.com.au/eldar40 ... ulator.htm is still up (no option for FNP)
and this one
http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/calcu ... combat.php
(not sure if its not fantasy though)
We really need a chock full of awesome one..:)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:42 pm

killmaimburn wrote:If your going to say MATHS again tim I think its time someone took seriously my requests for us to host a decent combat calculator :D

what can i say to that... except "maths"? ;)

killmaimburn wrote:1ST termies charge
14 plaguebearers-7 hit, 3.5 wound= 0.58 wounds to termie squad

you forgot the re-roll to wound (S4 Poison vs T4), should be 0.875 dead.

but i do see your point. :o

killmaimburn wrote:2nd plague bearers charge

Termies go first, 13.33 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.96 unsaved and die
Plague bearers 18 guys, 9 hit 4.5 wound=0.75 wounds

you forgot my +1A for charging and my re-roll to wound (are we playing 4th ed? LOL).

18 Plaguebearers = 36A = 18 hit = 13.5 wound = 2.25 dead Termies

which alters things a bit. you just lost almost 1/4 of your squad where as i only lost about 1/7 in return.

you would have to run the numbers again, but i think on the charge (thanks to all the 5th ed buffs) the Plaguebearers might just have the advantage slightly in the long run.

the rest of the time they are screwed though. :cry: :lol:

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Postby ruffian4 » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:58 pm

I read all of that ^.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:04 pm

i just made a spreadsheet and worked out the 2nd combat to its conclusion. by my calculations it takes the Termies 10 rounds to wipe out the Plaguebearers, having themselves taken 84% casualties in the process. (someone feel free to try and replicate these results in a sheet of your own)

talk about tarpit, eh? :P

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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:19 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:talk about tarpit, eh? :P
Surely the aim of a tarpit is to occupy a greater points bracket. e.g. 400 points of termies (1st examples worth but with 7 fists and icon of khorne , or imperial equivilant) go on MATH!!!

Or the reverse who can tarpit them for less points- 50 conscripts (200)with cannonnes with book (who doesn't go into the combat)=250 points how long do they tie up the plaguebearers for if they charge?
Silliness, apologies for forgetting the 3rd bucket of rules they piled on to that unit :P (me forgetting the +1 was just totall dumbness on my part)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:41 pm

ive just got out 20 Zombies and fired some Plasma Cannons at them. :twisted:

i must admit, i had over estimated their effectiveness: an average Run roll allowed the Plaguebearers to spread out to max coherency. 8O
(i didnt realise that...)

even though all 5 Plasma Cannons passed their Gets hot rolls, i only scored just over 1 hit per shot on average. :oops:
(although it was very hard to miss altogether)

another disadvantage is that the Devs would be unable to Move & Fire...

~ Tim
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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:44 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:even though all 5 Plasma Cannons passed their Gets hot rolls, i only scored just over 1 hit per shot on average.
Aww forget about it, I made 3 goofs , you made 2 (but one twice :) I think we're even in this thread, tarpitting :lol:
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Postby Ljundhammer » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:40 am

Has anyone ever seen a squad of 10 Chaos Terminators without any shooting upgrades, powerfists or even an Icon? Wouldn't such a large unit likely have the uber IC of death in it too?

If you had said 10 man squad, the rest of your army would likely be an auto FAIL anyway!

Similarly 20 man plaguebearer squads? Why would anyone take a squad that large - your better off with 4 10 man squads on almost every scenario (apart from this rather tenuous example...)

Mathhammer works (to a point, but I won't go there) for units that are likely to meet in a matchup, but is pretty pointless for those that won't...
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Postby KInG » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:13 am

ruffian4 wrote:I read all of that ^.


i read none of that...

guys stay on topic, we all know there is no unit that is totally unbeatable... we just want to know what you think is a tough unit. :)

I will swap Commisar Yarrick for just a normal Commisar, Ld 10 then with 50 men ;)
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:48 am

Ljundhammer wrote:Similarly 20 man plaguebearer squads? Why would anyone take a squad that large - your better off with 4 10 man squads on almost every scenario (apart from this rather tenuous example...)

umm... Kill Points? (imagine a Nurgle Daemon army with just 5-6 KP at 1500 pts!)

also, if you wanted to get more out of your Troops slots, especially considering they are Scoring Units (you might want a lot of Plaguebearers for holding objectives while still being able to fit in multiple smaller units of other Troops Daemons).

you also might want to have some bigger units and some smaller ones so as to get a bigger proportion of your force on the board as your first wave (half your units could be like 90% of your models). obviously this is a gamble though...

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Postby killmaimburn » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:17 am

Ljundhammer wrote:If you had said 10 man squad, the rest of your army would likely be an auto FAIL anyway!
Sounds like a challenge to me :D
Over reliance on mathhamer is dumb (I went there for you :)), but it is handy for some things (when blended into list composition and tactics (including terrain) and can be used on the fly (as a part of the decision making process in game)as long as you don't take more than an hour to play a game. (tis chess with more variables and quantum and chaos bits :))
The only other way we could do this is the herohammer bearpit (XX units worth XX points in a bloodbowl field..but I never got why that was so popular)

But yeah I had originally thought everything was working on units of 10 (banshee vs plaguebearers etc) thats a fairly everyday occurance.
So 10 PBers vs 4 termies 1 fist (3 combi plas and a heavy flamer that won't be used)
No charges involved..(cos I'm not doing 4 runs)

Round1
3 termies 6 attacks,4 hit 1.333 wounds==0.888 failed invulnerables (no FNP)
10 PBs- 5 hit ,3.75 wounds (after reroll)=0.625 failed saves (the termie with fist doesn't roll a "to save")
power fist 1.333 hits, 1.1111 wound=0.740740. dead (rpt)
you lost by 1 =0.333 wounds (after failed inv and fnp)

ROUND 2
2.4 termies 6 attacks,4 hit 1.333 wounds==0.888 failed invulnerables (no FNP)
7.2 PBs(8) 4 hit, 3 wound (afterreroll)=0.5 wounds (powerfist doesn't need to make a save)
power fist 1.333 hits, 1.1111 wound=0.740740. dead (rpt)
you lost by 1 =0.333 wounds (after failed inv and fnp)
GAHHH BORED ;)

termies 2.9 (inc fist) Pbs on 5.24
Round 3 is fairly easy to work out but round 4 gets too anal for me because you have to factor in the complex unit into the save ratio.
I'd just be lazyman and say 4∝2.9 vs 10∝ 5.24 (10 goes into 4 2.5 so
Termies are on 6.96 to the plaguebearers 5.24 money at the end of round 2.)
(i hope I used that math sign in its correct context, I'm using it to mean proprotaionately un equal too, it might need a cross strike)


Oh oh OP OP.. how about those dark eldar not skimmer not quite wraithlord things.. they are hard as nails (the talos's?) Doesn't help Mr6 was using 3 different codexs and interpreting them when I played against them last.:)
Last edited by killmaimburn on Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Antubis » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:03 am

What about the floaty bas***ds know as Wraiths, the only unit I know with a 3+ Armour AND Invulnerable Save, that's just nasty. :(
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:39 am

Antubis wrote:What about the floaty bas***ds know as Wraiths, the only unit I know with a 3+ Armour AND Invulnerable Save, that's just nasty. :(

unit sizes are too small, they need more Wraiths nearby for WBB, they cost too many points and their WBB can still be ignored unless there is an Orb nearby. plus they dont have Power Weapons. :(

hopefully in the new 'dex they will have Power Weapons/Rending and either 2W each or be cheaper with bigger unit sizes.

~ Tim
p.s. i was going to say that the new LoTD have 3+/3+, but actually they dont have Power Armour, so it could be argued that its just 3+ Inv... (as their Sv is Inv)
EDIT: i moved this topic to the Rules forum, here.
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