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Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

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Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby timewizard » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:11 pm

As the title says.
If I select a single tac squad, and declare that I am splitting it into 2 combat squads, would this fulfill the compulsory FOC requirements, particularly for a DoW engagement?
For example, could I form a 10 man tac squad with ML, flamer and Sgt. with PF, deploy the ML and 4 marines on the table, and then put the flamer, the sgt. and an IC into a razorback and deploy them on the table?
I believe I can, just curious if you all think it is legal.
Thanks for looking,
Time Wizard
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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:47 pm

timewizard wrote:As the title says.
If I select a single tac squad, and declare that I am splitting it into 2 combat squads, would this fulfill the compulsory FOC requirements, particularly for a DoW engagement?

Until you deploy the unit, you cannot CS them. With only 1 Troops choice in your army, you would never even start deploying, since your list would be illegal. ;)

DoW doesnt have a minimum requirement (you can deploy nothing if you like), but a single Tac Squad split into CS would count as your 2 allowed Troops units (units, not choices).

timewizard wrote:For example, could I form a 10 man tac squad with ML, flamer and Sgt. with PF, deploy the ML and 4 marines on the table, and then put the flamer, the sgt. and an IC into a razorback and deploy them on the table?
I believe I can, just curious if you all think it is legal.

Who does the Razorback belong to? If it belongs to the Tac squad then it is a Troops unit, which means you cant have it on the table as well as 2 (Troops) Combat Squads (since that would exceed the max of 2 Troops units in DoW).

In a non-DoW game that is perfectly legal though. :)

Hope that helps!

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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby timewizard » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:08 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote: Until you deploy the unit, you cannot CS them. With only 1 Troops choice in your army, you would never even start deploying, since your list would be illegal. ;)
DoW doesnt have a minimum requirement (you can deploy nothing if you like), but a single Tac Squad split into CS would count as your 2 allowed Troops units (units, not choices).

Okay, that makes sense. They are split during deployment and the FOC requirement must be met before that.

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:Who does the Razorback belong to? If it belongs to the Tac squad then it is a Troops unit, which means you cant have it on the table as well as 2 (Troops) Combat Squads (since that would exceed the max of 2 Troops units in DoW).

I had to re-read the BRB section on dedicated transports. It's still a bit confusing. A dedicated transport sits outside the FOC, (so they don't count?) but they count as being from the same FOC as the unit they were bought for? So they don't count except that they do? :wtf
So in DoW if I took a 10 man tac squad with a razorback, they would deploy together and count as 2 units?
I don't mean to sound like an a$$, I'm either just dense or I'm missing something here! :help

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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby lostandthedamned » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:09 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:
timewizard wrote:For example, could I form a 10 man tac squad with ML, flamer and Sgt. with PF, deploy the ML and 4 marines on the table, and then put the flamer, the sgt. and an IC into a razorback and deploy them on the table?
I believe I can, just curious if you all think it is legal.

Who does the Razorback belong to? If it belongs to the Tac squad then it is a Troops unit, which means you cant have it on the table as well as 2 (Troops) Combat Squads (since that would exceed the max of 2 Troops units in DoW).

In a non-DoW game that is perfectly legal though. :)

Hope that helps!

~ Tim



Isn't this is wrong?
A squad in a razorback is one troops choice as per the dedicated transport vehicle rule. As with any "multiple unit per choice" entry, you make the decision when the split is made how they count, so a 5 man combat squad in a razorback and the other 5 men on foot is 2 troops choices for deployment.
You will still need a second troops choice on your army list though as the split isn't made until deployment.

The same happens with guard. If your sqauds are split then you can deploy 2 10 man sqauds. If combined then you could deploy 2 50 man squads.
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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:13 pm

A dedicated transport doesnt take up an FOC slot.

However, DoW doesnt care about FOC choices, it cares about units, and a Dedicated Transport is a separate unit (DoW has very special and precise restrictions).

(If DoW cared about slots, then you could have 4 Combat Squads and 2 Dedicated Transports as your 2 Troops allowance, plus an HQ - but it doesnt, so you cant)

Does that clarify?

Cheers :)

~ Tim
EDIT: some rules quotes:
From p93 of the Rulebook, for DoW:
He then can deploy up to two units from
his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ
selections in his half of the table (this is his
‘deployment zone’).
...
Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, as
long as at the end of deployment the player still has
a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the
table.
...
Example: ... player B
then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into
their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of
Troops). He then deploys an independent character from
his HQ, joining the unit embarked in the transport.


From p92 of the rulebook:
MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to
include several units in his army at the cost of a single
force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.).
Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units
operate and count as separate units in all respects.
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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby timewizard » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:18 pm

Yes! I think I got it now, thanks to you both!
Now, would this mean I could take a 10 man tac squad in a razorback for my FOC, and then in DoW, split the tac into 2 combat squads and deploy 1 combat squad in the razorback on the table, leaving the other combat squad behind?
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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:34 pm

timewizard wrote:Now, would this mean I could take a 10 man tac squad in a razorback for my FOC, and then in DoW, split the tac into 2 combat squads and deploy 1 combat squad in the razorback on the table, leaving the other combat squad behind?

I dont think you can, actually. :(

You split the squad when you deploy it, and if you are deploying it, it cant be in Reserve (and the Combat Squads arent treated as separate units until they are split).

I checked the FAQ and this isnt mentioned. The codex says you can deploy the 2 separate CS in different locations, but doesnt say you can choose not to even deploy one of them in the first place.

Anyone else able to confirm this?

Cheers :)

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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby Spack » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:07 pm

The DA codex made this clearer because it does not allow units in reserve to be split into combat squads, nor combat squads to be put into reserve.

Also note that in 5th edition you do not deploy into reserve - you deploy to the table, or leave units in reserve. As you can only combat squad when you deploy, or when a unit disembarks from a drop pod, you would not be able to split in combat squads coming in from reserve (unless you were coming in via drop pod), and you could not put one combat squad into reserve - the unit splits at the point you deploy to the table, and it's already too late to leave in reserve at the moment the unit is deployed.
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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby timewizard » Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:31 pm

True enough. And a re-read of DoW says that units that were not deployed and not put into reserve enter on the palyer's first turn. And since tac squads are split during deployment, in DoW if I wnat to split a tac squad into 2 combat squads, I would have to deploy just the 2 combat squads and the one HQ unit.
Cheers for the replies gentlemen!
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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby killmaimburn » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:52 pm

TW your sig has a quote thats startling similar to the warseer one I've stuck with for the last 2 years :) (its nice to know that 2 people said a similar thing at different times and different places lol)
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Re: Do 2 combat squads fulfill legal FOC requirements?

Postby timewizard » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:23 pm

Proving again that great minds do indeed think alike! :D
I felt the need for a change in sig, and since I have had members of this site gently correct me or convince me to change my mind from time to time, this one seemed apropros. Glad you like it! 8)
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