Ohh pants.. need a ruffian, "Deployment"

[killmaimburn]

Gordons Alivee!!!
Ok this came up at the spring meet, matt and I kind of gave tim a quick backhand and let Bane (Tim's teammate) carry on about his business.. but it appears the interwebs has fervantly changed its opinion on such matters..and I bring them now before the court of depilloryfication.. (as in potentially maybe tim was right).
Dude had sicarus, gave 1 "tactical squad" infiltrate, infiltrated half and announced during the deployment phase that half would be sat back and use outflank with dedicated transport..

this thread on warseer got locked about 5 days back.
but since it goes against how me and matt called it, I figured we should maybe just throw it around a bit here.

To my mind, you have the "preparing reserves" section of deployment, you select method of entry and in that moment they are split. (semantics about deployment over deploying be damned )

e.g.
1) do I have an empty landraider rolling on and 2x 5 deepstriking (if I say 5 are deepstriking may I ever start or roll on in a landraider?)?
2)Do I have 5 terminators in a landraider rolling on and 5 deepstriking (on 1 reserves roll for the DSers and the bunch in the tank as the web seems to suggest (and how then have they stayed 1, or have I not declared who is where, against the rules )
3) do I from the point of announcing 5 will come in a landraider and 5 will deep strike treat them as seperate units for entering the table?

Does this conclude that "units" are still single entitys until the game begins...so for example you couldn't have 10 scouts, put 5 in a storm outflanking and 5 infiltrating.(as you would have to have put the unit on the table before splitting it)
Does this then mean that because it is still a singular entity until it touches the table that only one method of entry may be used. (all pod, all outflank, all walk on, all in transport, nothing split bar stuff that comes on in a pod)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Stupid game is stupid... anyone clear all my drool up?

[edited to make it a bit clearer)

[lostandthedamned]

As we play it you can only combat sqaud at two points in the game.
1: During deployment. This causes the unit to count as two so for example you can't deploy a combat sqauded unit and it's transport because that would be three troops units. However in any other deployment you can have either combat squad in the unit transport and the other on the table.

2: As you exit a drop pod.

Terminators will have to start on the table to be combat sqauded wether in a vehicle or not.

[mattjgilbert]

I don't get your number 1. A dedicated transport is a separate unit and surely has no bearing on splitting the non-vehicle into 2 combat squads?

[Baragash]

I assume it's a reference to DoW deployment where CSing would use up the 2 Troop allowance for initial deployment.

EDIT:
kmb 1 seems fine
kmb 2 I'd have interpreted as against RAW, although I don't object to it being done
kmb 3 I interpret them to always be treated as separate units for entering the table if you choose to CS

[mattjgilbert]

I assume it's a reference to DoW deployment where CSing would use up the 2 Troop allowance for initial deployment.

That would then make sense

[ruffian4]

Will dredge through the seer thread this evening.
I think we will end up with deploy vs deploy vs deployment though.

Oh yeah, dive my hawkmen dive!
Here's a good one (stargod?)... I knew it was one of the prime numbers of the ziemann series...

[timewizard]

I'll give it a try KMB. I'll have to presume we're not talking about DoW deployment here.

To my mind, you have the "preparing reserves" section of deployment, you select method of entry and in that moment they are split. (semantics about deployment over deploying be damned )

Combat squads are not split until they are deployed. When you put a unit into reserves, it has not been deployed. So a squad cannot be split into combat squads when it is placed into reserves, only when it is deployed.

1) do I have an empty landraider rolling on and 2x 5 deepstriking (if I say 5 are deepstriking may I ever start or roll on in a landraider?)?

Yes, this you can do. If you are taking the landraider as a dedicated transport for the terminators and putting the unit in reserve, you then have to declare if the unit will arrive by deep strike. If you declare this, you then roll for them to arrive as one unit, even though the raider can't deep strike. When they arrive, the landraider must roll on (unless BA which can deep strike) and the termies will deep strike in. You can choose to deepstrike the 10 termies as one unit on the table, or split them into 2 five man combat squads. Once you do this, you can deep strike each combat squad in a different location.

2)Do I have 5 terminators in a landraider rolling on and 5 deepstriking (on 1 reserves roll for the DSers and the bunch in the tank as the web seems to suggest (and how then have they stayed 1, or have I not declared who is where, against the rules )

No because when you put a unit in reserve, you must declare how it will arrive from reserve and this can't be changed later on. The 10 terminators are 1 unit at this point and are only split when deployed. Since you can't split them when they are put in reserve they either all arrive from the board edge or all arrive via deep strike. Once they are deployed, they can be split.

3) do I from the point of announcing 5 will come in a landraider and 5 will deep strike treat them as seperate units for entering the table?

Not possible to do because of the reason I stated above. They can't be split in reserve.

Does this conclude that "units" are still single entitys until the game begins...so for example you couldn't have 10 scouts, put 5 in a storm outflanking and 5 infiltrating.(as you would have to have put the unit on the table before splitting it)
Does this then mean that because it is still a singular entity until it touches the table that only one method of entry may be used. (all pod, all outflank, all walk on, all in transport, nothing split bar stuff that comes on in a pod)

Units are single entities until deployed. They don't have to be split after they come on the table. Combat squads are split when they are deployed, but they can be deployed in two separate locations because the codex says they can.
As far as only one entry method to be used, yes and no. Deep strike is different becuse you must declare if a unit is going to deep strike when it is put in reserve. It then has to arrive that way. Even if you split 10 terminators into 2 combat squads, they would both have to deep strike in.
Dedicated transports gets a little uglier. BRB says that dedicated transports can only be deployed empty or with the unit they were selected with plus any attached ICs. Does this mean you can take 10 termies with a dedicated landraider, then when deployed put 5 in the raider and walk the other 5 on? I play it that you can, but I've seen it argued that since the transport was taken by a "unit" of 10 termies, that all 10 must be deployed in the raider or it has to come in empty.
But I countered the argument by saying that when I decide to split into combat squads, the codex says the squads can be deployed in 2 separate locations and are treated as separate units from that point. So first I split them as I deploy them, then they are 2 units. I then deploy 1 combat squad in the transport and the other in a different location. So the transport is still being deployed with the unit it was selected with, one in the transport and one not, and the combat squads are now separate units.

Hope I answered the question, if not clarify it a bit and I'll try again.
Cheers! TW

[mattjgilbert]

Yes, this you can do. If you are taking the landraider as a dedicated transport for the terminators and putting the unit in reserve, you then have to declare if the unit will arrive by deep strike. If you declare this, you then roll for them to arrive as one unit, even though the raider can't deep strike. When they arrive, the landraider must roll on (unless BA which can deep strike) and the termies will deep strike in. You can choose to deepstrike the 10 termies as one unit on the table, or split them into 2 five man combat squads. Once you do this, you can deep strike each combat squad in a different location.

A dedicated transport is a separate unit. If the terminators are not inside it (i.e. you declared they were deep striking) why would you roll for the LR and the terminators at the same time? That's 2 rolls, not 1.

[BANE]

The way I read it is thus, decide unit composition in deploymemt Ie comatose squad full squad etc.

Next place models on the board or declare method of entry Ie walk on, ds in fed transport etc.

From the point of declaring you are combat squading you treat both squads as separate as for reserve rolls etc but maintain any rules the squad had as a whole ie infiltrate, tank hunters etc.

If this is wrong I have been playing it wrong for a lot of games with no-one ever raising an eyebrow, and I have king in my gaming group!

[killmaimburn]

If this is wrong I have been playing it wrong for a lot of games with no-one ever raising an eyebrow, and I have king in my gaming group!

I think you and I both have,(although I haven't combat squaded much. )

Sorry LR as dedicated was to encorporate the sillyness of a 10 man squad never being able to start in it in DOW etc. I loaded the questions with traintrack pathos

he 10 terminators are 1 unit at this point and are only split when deployed. Since you can't split them when they are put in reserve

I still cry silly at that bit...but I can see why I guess.

[timewizard]

@Matt-Right. Just re-read that part. You must specify if the transport is carrying the unit. So you could take a land raider as a dedicated transport for the termies to save the heavy FOC slot, put both in reserves and declare the terminators will arrive via deep strike. At that point, the raider is in reserve empty and would be rolled for separately.
The only way to roll for and bring the raider in with the termies would be to not deep strike the terminators, where they could then be split when deployed with 5 arriving in the raider and 5 walking on the table edge.

@KMB-This kind of reaffirms the discussion Ruffian and myself have been dancing around regarding deployment. Not getting into a GW writes silly rules argument but just a quick one, first sentence under preparing reserves; "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units..."

[killmaimburn]

But can you have a squad arrive by 2 different methods of walking on, some in a car some hoofing? Where does it say that partially a unit may be embarked before it splits?
silly- I call silly on the whole interwebs.

[lostandthedamned]

You can't.
As written the only time you can combat squad is at deployment when starting on the table or when coming out of a drop pod.

Coming on to the table by any other means of reserve (deep strike, walking on outflanking ect) must come on as a single unit.

[timewizard]

But can you have a squad arrive by 2 different methods of walking on, some in a car some hoofing? Where does it say that partially a unit may be embarked before it splits?

Yes because the combat squads rules say that the squads can be deployed in separate locations. Nowhere does it say that a unit must be embarked before it splits. The restriction is that a dedicated transport can only be deployed with the unit it was selected with (plus any IC). When a unit is split into combat squads, they are 2 separate units from that point, so either unit can be deployed in the transport, the other being a separate unit must deploy elswhere.

silly- I call silly on the whole interwebs.

No argument here!

[killmaimburn]

You can't.

you can:

I think I broke timewizard.