Login

Username:


Password:


Remember me



Forgot Password?




 Merchandise




Genestealer Cult - 5th ed Update (Combat Patrol)

For discussing new rules and changes to the current rules, such as new homebrew datasheets for Apocalypse

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:03 pm

mattjgilbert wrote:re: drawing a line. Those still with a human connection still rely on the influence or still feel the influence of the magus directing what they do. The "pure" stealers can operate without it and can even melt away to form new cults should they one they are "attached" to be destroyed. Fits what I remember of how stealers operate while "seeding" worlds...

OK, so we make "THMCI!" only affect non-Stealers... but what should we make it do?

FNP or a Cover/Inv Save? Fearless? something to do with Fleet (but then, it would only affect Hybrids as BBs dont have Fleet)? Furious Charge? Prefered Enemy? something else?

or maybe have it only affect Brood Brothers (like mind control on the human slaves)? Fearless and FNP might not be overpowered if it only applied to the weakest units.

-------------------

as an aside, how about Counter-attack as a special rule for Hybrids?

cheers :)

~ Tim
p.s. il update my original post to show the Cover Save for Stealers and to list the Psy powers.
Last edited by LordMalekTheRedKnight on Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:15 pm

THMCI! sounds like being forced into doing something either sacrificial or insane.

Maybe that could be represented by giving the cultists something like an Ork Waaagh once per game? Counts as the pyschic power for the turn and is auto cast but it's a one-off and grants all non-pure-stealers...what? Furious Charge?

Maybe a couple of options need to be playtested?

edit: not sure about counter charge...need to read some fluff!
Last edited by mattjgilbert on Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mattjgilbert
BladeDancer
Daemon Prince
 
Posts: 5847
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Worthing, UK

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:36 pm

mattjgilbert wrote:THMCI! sounds like being forced into doing something either sacrificial or insane.

i think the problem is that Catalyst is too weak these days (IMO) - otherwise i would just use that.

the old version used to give the brood Frenzy and a Sv bonus, IIRC. :twisted:

mattjgilbert wrote:Maybe that could be represented by giving the cultists something like an Ork Waaagh once per game? Counts as the pyschic power for the turn and is auto cast but it's a one-off and grants all non-pure-stealers...what? Furious Charge?

ooh a one-off power sounds good! that would stop it being a no-brainer or something that would get used every turn (until the Magus died from Perils).

i dont want to make Hive Beacon too much like Synapse, but at the same time i want Fearless-ness in there somewhere - even if its only temporary.

how about a one-use only THMCI! giving the all the BBs Fearless and FNP for a turn? or gives the Hybrids Furious Charge and Fearless? (then again, the Hybrids would be better than the Stealers w/S5...)

how about re-rolling missed to-hit rolls if they charge that turn?

OK, heres a list of abilities we could use:
- re-roll (or count as rolling a 6 for) Fleet
- re-roll misses in CC (when charging) or Prefered Enemy
- Feel No Pain or Cover/Inv Save
- Fearless or re-roll Ld tests

can you think of any other possibilities?

depending on who it affects, how many units it can affect it a time and how often it can be used, we can mix and match several abilities if need be.

i think i either want to represent the unit being compelled to hold its ground and keep fighting despite taking damage, or being spurred on to fight harder than normal in hand to hand combat.

-------------------------

EDIT: ive also got a few of the old 'Stealer Familiars too. apart from decorating bases, is there anything i can use them for? (a Swarm is out due to the 2W limit in CP)

would baby 'stealers be used as a fighting unit, or would they be protected until they have matured? could they be used a bit like a standard - units within x" get a benefit, but if they are killed something bad happens?

cheers :)

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:59 pm

Possible uses for baby-stealers:

1. Wound markers
2. Objective markers
3. Counters which keep people guessing where the stealers might deep strike (e.g. you place 3 on the table at the start of the game and when the stealers are available, you choose which one they "emerge" from :D

One off power...Prefered Enemy for a turn (against all enemy units) sounds good.

How about this of you want some kind of bonus save. A power which reduces the inv save of the magus but grants one to any unit he is with! (e.g. 5+ across the board)
Last edited by mattjgilbert on Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mattjgilbert
BladeDancer
Daemon Prince
 
Posts: 5847
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Worthing, UK

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:10 pm

mattjgilbert wrote:One off power...Prefered Enemy for a turn (against all enemy units) sounds good.

cool (although it wouldnt help the Purestrains). :)

mattjgilbert wrote:How about this of you want some kind of bonus save. A power which reduces the inv save of the magus but grants one to any unit he is with! (e.g. 5+ across the board)

hmm... im not sure on the Magus expending power protecting the Cultists (would the fluff support that?). instead of an Inv Save i think i would rather him forcing them to fight on after being injured (defending him to their dying breath) - i.e. FNP.

or how about him confering Fearless to a unit he joins (instead of him losing it)? while not actually keeping them alive, it at least makes them fight to the death (as running away isnt an option). :twisted:

cheers

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby AdrianG » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:55 pm

Of course you could blatantly "borrow" stuff out of Bell of Lost Souls Mini-Dex that they've just done :D
If nothing else, it might give you a few extra sparks to the creative juices.
User avatar
AdrianG
Apprentice Lurker (Still)
Captain
 
Posts: 710
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Stafford, Staffordshire

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:41 pm

Algeroth wrote:Of course you could blatantly "borrow" stuff out of Bell of Lost Souls Mini-Dex that they've just done :D
If nothing else, it might give you a few extra sparks to the creative juices.

i did flick through it when i downloaded it, but yeah, im giving it a proper read through now (im up to p11 already).

it just reminded me actually that i hadnt given then Purestrains Move Through Cover (whoops), so ive fixed that in my OP. :oops:

cheers :)

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:12 pm

ive picked up a few Hybrids recently (thanks to Dan and ebay), and ive gotten hold of the 2nd ed codex, and its got me thinking about this list again. here are some tweaks i am considering:

- drop the Brood Brothers and Hybrid squads down to 10 models each (the 2nd ed Cult list had these units in 10-20 models, so there is no need to stick to multiples of 6 for these). il keep the BB Anti-tank squad at 6, but thats more because thats how IG Special/Heavy weapon squads work (6 guys, 3 weapons). if the Hybrids are dropped to 10, i think i would increase the number of models w/Rending Claws to 5 (half of 10 rather than the original one third of 12).
- i see the Magus as a sort of cross between an IG Officer, Eldar Farseer and Tau Ethereal. ive reconsidered his Psy Power load-out: i want to keep the Inv Save as a special rule (rather than as a power), and i want Jinx to affect a whole enemy unit (like a cross between an anti-Guide and Doom). i also want him to keep the 12" Ld bubble. as a result, i think im happy to drop The Hive Mind Commands It! as a Power. however, im considering giving any BB or Hybrid unit he is leading Prefered Enemy OR Feel No Pain in CC only to represent them fighting harder to defend him.

thoughts? :?:

cheers :)

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:20 pm

Revised list:

Code: Select all
Genestealer Magus - Force Commander - xx pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
3     3    3    3    2    4   1(2)  10  5+/3+Inv

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 1 Model
Weapons: Laspistol, Force Weapon (Staff)
Special Rules:
- Independant Character
- Fearless
- Psyker
- Psychic Power - "Jinx": Requires a successful Psychic Test, cast instead of shooting, targets any enemy unit that has at least one model within Range (24") and LOS. An affected unit must re-roll all successful 'to-hit' rolls in its following Shooting Phase. Does not affect who the Magus can charge, and if he is joined to a unit, they are not restricted to shooting/charging the same unit he targets with the power (i.e. it does not work like shooting).
- Psychic Shield: The Magus has 3+ Invulnerable Save, and cannot suffer Instant Death.
- Hive Beacon: All friendly units that have at least one model within 12" of the Magus may use his Ld for any Leadership tests while he is alive.


Brood Brothers Squad - xx pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
2     2    3    3    1    4    1     5    6+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 10 Models
Weapons: Lasguns/Autoguns. In addition, 1 model has a Flamer and 1 has a Heavy Stubber (R24", S4, AP6, Assault 3).
Special Rules:
- Brood Telepathy: The unit does not suffer from Instinctive Behaviour - instead it takes Pinning and Morale Tests using its own Ld.
- Home Turf: The unit has the Scouts and Move Through Cover USRs. If the Magus is joined to the unit, these rules are NOT lost.


Brood Brothers Anti-tank Squad - xx pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
2     2    3    3    1    4    1     5    6+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 6 Models
Weapons: Lasguns/Autoguns, Krak Grenades. In addition, 3 models have Rocket Launchers (R24", S8, AP3, Assault 1).
Special Rules:
- Brood Telepathy (see above)
- Home Turf (see above)


Genestealer Hybrid Brood - xx pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
3     2    4    3    1    4   1(2)   8    5+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 10 Models
Weapons: Laspistols/Autopistols, Close Combat Weapons, Frag Grenades. In addition, 5 models have Rending Claws.
Special Rules:
- Fleet
- Brood Telepathy (see above)
- Home Turf (see above)


Genestealer Purestrain Brood - 120 pts

WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
6     0    4    4    1    6   2(3)  10    5+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit Size: 6 Models
Weapons: Rending Claws, Scything Talons
Special Rules:
- Fleet
- Move Through Cover
- Brood Telepathy (see above)
- Hidden Threat: The Purestrain Brood MUST be placed in Reserve during Deployment, and enter play using the Deep Strike rule. Once they arrive, they receive a 5+ Cover Save, even in the open, until the start of the following Cult turn.


hows that?

so all thats left now is to work out points values (for VP purposes - the total will still be 400pts), and decide what to do Re: a unit of BBs/Hybrids the Magus is joined to defending him in CC:

should they get FnP? Fearless? Preferred Enemy? Counter Attack? (all of the above?) :?:

thoughts?

cheers
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby killmaimburn » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:31 pm

Words could do with a tidy up with teh relationship between the leadership tests
""instead it takes Pinning and Morale Tests using its own Ld. ""
""All friendly units that have at least one model within 12" of the Magus may use his Ld for any Leadership tests ""
Which is the speicific and general of these... do brood brothers not beneifit from the magus? As all the units have the use their own LD special rule I take it that this is overcome by the 12" magus with book of st lucius.But thats only because I know what you mean.

I call the magus as being between 60-80 points (he's very cannoness with equipment)
Barely even lurking..
ruffian4 wrote:Handy fellow, this kmb...Like Ahriman delving the paths of the webway ...
World of ME First try at Apoc Batrep WHAT/WHO is AOS?
User avatar
killmaimburn
Now Vanus Clade
 
Posts: 6581
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Nottingham, mid-land
Blog: View Blog (1)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:57 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Words could do with a tidy up with teh relationship between the leadership tests

yes, that was niggling me a bit too - i copied the wording from the Nid Codex. im thinking of dropping the rule altogether (afterall, there is no Instinctive Behaviour rule in the list to make them exempt from), or just change it to say that they take Ld tests "as normal".

killmaimburn wrote:I call the magus as being between 60-80 points (he's very cannoness with equipment)

originally i wanted him somewhere around 55-60 (i wanted him in the low-level Farseer/Elite Inquisitor sorta region), but ive tweaked him back and forth since.

on the other hand, seeing as individual unit Pts Values will only be for VPs etc rather than for balance (as the list will be balanced as a whole, in theory), i could use them to emphasise the fluff. for example, losing the Magus would be a big blow (so he could be worth a disproportionately large amount of VPs) while using human Broodbrother slaves as pawns would be far more acceptable (so they would be worth few if any VPs). a bit like how Death Company arent worth many (if any) VPs, as they are effectively already dead.

i seem to remember that in 2nd ed if the Cult lost its leader then they automatically lost the game. 40K doesnt use this sort of mechanic any more, but if i made him worth say 100 - 120 VPs, then it would make victory much harder for the Cult to achieve if he was lost.

thoughts?

cheers :)

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby killmaimburn » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:04 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote: 40K doesnt use this sort of mechanic any more, but if i made him worth say 100 - 120 VPs, then it would make victory much harder for the Cult to achieve if he was lost.
Well there is necron phase out, and the tau bloke who dies causing the whole army to panic off top of head. You could uber him up some and thenmake sure he is a target but a hard one (e.g. vindicare rules of being hard to see rather than an IC?) and then when he dies cause a tau fear ripple\questioning of zealotry to the sense of looking down a witchunters bolt gun.
Barely even lurking..
ruffian4 wrote:Handy fellow, this kmb...Like Ahriman delving the paths of the webway ...
World of ME First try at Apoc Batrep WHAT/WHO is AOS?
User avatar
killmaimburn
Now Vanus Clade
 
Posts: 6581
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Nottingham, mid-land
Blog: View Blog (1)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:53 pm

killmaimburn wrote:You could uber him up some and thenmake sure he is a target but a hard one (e.g. vindicare rules of being hard to see rather than an IC?) and then when he dies cause a tau fear ripple\questioning of zealotry to the sense of looking down a witchunters bolt gun.

i didnt think that sort of thing was appropriate, considering the scale of a Combat Patrol engagement. we are only talking about a couple dozen cultists and a small brood of Stealers afterall, in a close range battle. by the time the Magus dies you are already too close to back away, and things would be too desparate just to flee (you would have to fight your way out). the loss of the Magus would have more of an effect on the uprising as a whole (as opposed to the skirmish being represented on the table).

theres also the "fun factor" to consider: if the game is over as soon as you kill one model, where is the fun in that? (even if you know you have lost a lot of VPs you can try and fight for a draw by the end of the game)

as it is, if you lose the Magus you suffer a drop in Ld (with the Broodbrothers in particular being poor in this department). you also lose the support he brings to the force, and your opponent gains VPs for him at the end of the battle.

even Nids dont auto-lose once all their Synapse is dead, so i think thats fair enough. :)

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

Postby killmaimburn » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:02 pm

LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:theres also the "fun factor" to consider: if the game is over as soon as you kill one model, where is the fun in that? (even if you know you have lost a lot of VPs you can try and fight for a draw by the end of the game)
ok it just sounded like you missed those mechanisms you were talking about..and i found you way.
LordMalekTheRedKnight wrote:already too close to back away, and things would be too desparate just to flee
Sounds like your going to give your calm and restrained list and they shall know no fear :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Barely even lurking..
ruffian4 wrote:Handy fellow, this kmb...Like Ahriman delving the paths of the webway ...
World of ME First try at Apoc Batrep WHAT/WHO is AOS?
User avatar
killmaimburn
Now Vanus Clade
 
Posts: 6581
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Nottingham, mid-land
Blog: View Blog (1)

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:24 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Sounds like your going to give your calm and restrained list and they shall know no fear

hardly: 50% of the force will be Ld 5. :roll: :P

OK, hows this for an idea:
once the Magus is dead, if ever a squad is Falling Back at the start of the turn but is not eligible to attempt to regroup, then they are removed from play (they go to ground rather than try to make a fighting withdrawl). :idea:

or maybe if the Magus is leading a unit when he is killed that unit must take an Ld test or flee (like IG Trademark Item... although even that allows the unit to reroll tests before the owner is killed)? or maybe units within x"? and if they pass, they become enraged and seek revenge? (dont want this to go too "Ethereal" though)

Nids get Fearless-ness (and ID immunity) from Synapse, but in return suffer Instinctive Behaviour if it is lost (and even that doesnt apply to 'Stealers). if all the Cult is going to get is an IG style Ld bubble (albeit @ Ld10), then i dont think they need to suffer too much if the Magus is lost.

at the same time, i dont just want to use Synapse/Instinctive Behaviour in this list, as i wanted to do something different (and Brood Telepathy is a signature rule for Stealers, making them exempt from those rules anyway).

~ Tim
8O :D OMG - Im a Dad - of THREE!! :D 8O
:) I am "LMTRK" on The Wizards Community and MTG Salvation
User avatar
LordMalekTheRedKnight
Lord Marmite
Lord General
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Stamford, Lincs, UK

PreviousNext



Return to 40K Rules Development




 Social Links