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New Codex Space Marine Army lists

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New Codex Space Marine Army lists

Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:47 am

Hello all,

Many of us have managed to get a look at the new C:SM & I thought it might be a laugh to see what we could come up with - good and bad!

Here's a little list I pulled together this morning. It isn't something I have the time, or inclination to model at the moment, but I like the look of it!

CantorPod 1500:

HQ: Pedro Cantor - 175pts

Elite: Sternguard - 330pts
Sargeant - powerfist & bolter
9 x veterans - 7 boltguns, 2 combi-meltas
Drop-pod - locator beacon

Elite: Sternguard - 330pts
Sargeant - powerfist & bolter
9 x veterans - 7 boltguns, 2 combi-meltas
Drop-pod - locator beacon

Elite: Sternguard - 190pts
Sargeant - lightning claw & bolter
4 x veterans - 1 boltgun, 2 combi-flamers, heavy flamer
Drop-pod

Troop: Tactical squad - 230pts
Sargeant - power weapon, melta bombs
9 x marines - melta gun, multi-melta
Drop-pod

Troop: Tactical squad - 230pts
Sargeant - power weapon, melta bombs
9 x marines - plasma gun, lascannon
Drop-pod

Total points: 1500
Marines: 46
Drop pods: 5
Kill points: 11
Scoring units: 5 (or 9 if I can combat squad - not worked that out yet!)

Cantor's special rules mean that Stearnguard, with their super killy guns of doom get to be scoring. So with the Drop pod assault rules, I get to send down all the Sternguard (with Cantor in one of them), kill a butt-load of Space marines, hopefully land the pods on some objectives, thereby contesting them (even if the space marines all die!). The troops then pod in with the locators to kill armour (melta squad), or far away to hold other objectives (lascannon squad).

It looks a little cheesy on paper, but hey! The Shrike-wing is another goody (KMB has put that one to paper I know), although it lacks scoring units. This army's main weakness seems to be mobility once it hits the ground, however, If you land on or near the ojectives, moving shouldn't be an issue... Against hordes it'll suffer too - hence the (admitedly ineffective) flamer squad.

All in all I like the new codex, some of the cheese-screeching out there was way off (and I know I got caught up in it), the points to get uber-killy squads of doom seem reasonable - although there are some cookie-cutters out there. I admit to looking at the codex now and thinking that Chaos Space Marines isn't a bad counter-point to this, and with the loss of 6 man-las-plas, my Grey knights might come out to play occasionally...

What lists can you come up with - either dreaming, or one's you'll actually use...

See you,
James
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Postby Taumaul » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:20 pm

Your 10 man squads in the Drop pods can be split into combat squads when they disembark from the DP's, I believe. 8)
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Postby Spack » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:34 pm

Yeah, that splitting at disembarkation is just plain evil!
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Postby killmaimburn » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:05 pm

Ohh drop pods landing onto objectives so I have to waste time killing them too, i likey :)
Sternguard with 4 attacks on the charge- thats just ..just..awesome.
I might take the melta bombs off the basic squads and up a power weapon to a fist (whats 1 bomb gonna do?miss)

lists I've got ready
Shrike's flyboys- suffers when escalation is rolled as most of the hammer is removed from the hammer and anvil (i like how the pods get around that for you). But otherwise deadly (+I have all the models now)
Scout's wing, just scout spam with shrike means basically a tourney legal kroot army (vast quantities of 1st turn assualters if you mix scout infiltrate and fleet)
Fully teched
4 AV13 dreadnoughts a forgemaster and 2 SM squads in razorbacks..Quite funny..but not great.

Fully scouting a combination of techmarines and scout bikers can make your enemy terrified of being in cover whilst you have an army of 2+ save scouts ..Novel list-you can have 4 pieces of terrain upped, 60 scouts +bikes and 3 booby trapped enemy terrain pieces and still have room for heavy weapons aroun the place, needs some counter assualt since that would basically walk straight through the basic list But it would terrify conventional geq gunline.

I made an all heavy flamer speeders and mult melta attack bikes with the guy who rerolls them.. but it was really pants very fragile.
(BTW Mr6 can't make tonight)
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Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:29 pm

Taumaul wrote:Your 10 man squads in the Drop pods can be split into combat squads when they disembark from the DP's, I believe. 8)


I didn't realise that - this army just gets beardier!

killmaimburn wrote:Ohh drop pods landing onto objectives so I have to waste time killing them too, i likey :)


Yeah, it's a bit nasty! They are quite tricky to kill at AV12 as well...

killmaimburn wrote:Sternguard with 4 attacks on the charge- thats just ..just..awesome.
I might take the melta bombs off the basic squads and up a power weapon to a fist (whats 1 bomb gonna do?miss)


Yep, I think anyone using drop-pods is going to need Cantor, he brings all the toys you need in a drop-pod army. I agree on the melta-bombs/fists (need to find 10 points somewhere), but I just cooked it up in 10 minutes.

killmaimburn wrote:lists I've got ready
Shrike's flyboys- suffers when escalation is rolled as most of the hammer is removed from the hammer and anvil (i like how the pods get around that for you). But otherwise deadly (+I have all the models now)
Scout's wing, just scout spam with shrike means basically a tourney legal kroot army (vast quantities of 1st turn assualters if you mix scout infiltrate and fleet)
Fully teched
4 AV13 dreadnoughts a forgemaster and 2 SM squads in razorbacks..Quite funny..but not great.


I agree with your assessment of Shrike - he's a balls-out choice, he'll either work (and with very little many opponents can do about it) or he is completely nuetered.

I'm not feeling the scouts at all, they seem like overpriced guardsmen to me. I can see that they have a role in a combined approach list, but fielding them alone in numbers looks like the kiss of death to me.

I like the new Iron-clads - makes me wonder why Defilers got pushed down to AV12 though :( Razorbacks are looking very nice at the moment.

killmaimburn wrote:Fully scouting a combination of techmarines and scout bikers can make your enemy terrified of being in cover whilst you have an army of 2+ save scouts ..Novel list-you can have 4 pieces of terrain upped, 60 scouts +bikes and 3 booby trapped enemy terrain pieces and still have room for heavy weapons aroun the place, needs some counter assualt since that would basically walk straight through the basic list But it would terrify conventional geq gunline.


Not played with Techmarines yet, I'll look at them in a few days...

killmaimburn wrote:I made an all heavy flamer speeders and mult melta attack bikes with the guy who rerolls them.. but it was really pants very fragile.


Bikers, to my mind, seriously only compete in combined forces (unless it's RavenWing) they are simply too fragile & don't have enough firepower to go against an army without some major distractions, or unless they have a definate aim (throw away tank hunters in fast armies, or daemon-bombing in C:CSM).

Some good lists & things to think about KMB.
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Postby killmaimburn » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:48 pm

RE scouts- imagine a guardsman, whose t4, and who has all those special rules (+ the HQ special rule) they have a lot of flexibility to them.. I can see the units being put too all kinds of sickness other than just pathfinders.
I think Telion may be overpriced.. i think its a goof to have "replace the sergant with" and then charge that much more.. (and likewise to not let him shoot if he confers his ability) Yes he has a sniping storm bolter.. but 76 points of real cost...hmmm. He's definitly my "spawn" of the deck so far (also not crazy for the venerable dreads compared to the other two types)
I want to try the storm, but every combo or trick I imagine involves assualt weaponry I know the scouts have the newly upped shotguns but i was kind of hoping for suspendors (old imperial fist(?) thing from space crusade that made them assualt weapons) for the heavy bolters.
I figure if I can work out how to do it theres some nice modelling oppurtunitys there (scouts hanging out in a black hawk down kind of way mid disembarkation \leaning prone etc)

I figure a cheese list you could do with the sternhammer is the veiling immortals, max sternguard 2 libbies with the gate thingy. that likewise has some flexibility.(especially when you don't want to be to close and start down)

When drafting smaller lists (with FOC slots free)it might be fun to include devastaters- they cost an awful lot but for 15 more than their chaos counterparts they do come with a signum (new rules, thats pretty funny) Still messy though because a 5 man with las costs twice what a predator does.. Downside being that it works like a chaos icon..what are sergants in dev squads if they aren't disposable (shakes head in mock bewilderment)
Tech marines- some nice bits, some strange bits he can have a servo harness whilst riding a bike.He basically got a better save for the loss of his CC prowess..He will die the first time a plasma gun hits him..so he'll now NEED to sit in a squad(or out of LOS).Possibly making a point for servitors (although I'm not convinced)

RULES QUESTION
Can he just hide in a vehicle repairing it in 5th ed?Is being inside it being in base contact?
Could you then have a techmarine repairing all weapon destroyeds and immobilised whilst chronus makes you ignore stunned and shaken..Does he take up a transport slot???(I guess he does)..
So the new uber uber landraider would cost 380 hmmm fun value only I suspect :)
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Postby Baragash » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:09 pm

killmaimburn wrote:i was kind of hoping for suspendors (old imperial fist(?) thing from space crusade that made them assualt weapons)


Looks like 2 of your favourite past-times may have got mixed up - you mean suspensors. :P
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Postby Ljundhammer » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:39 pm

killmaimburn wrote:RE scouts- imagine a guardsman, whose t4, and who has all those special rules (+ the HQ special rule) they have a lot of flexibility to them.. I can see the units being put too all kinds of sickness other than just pathfinders.


What sort of stuff - I'm really looking at them & drawing a blank... I assume the combat tactics is the HQ special rule you're looking at? This seems like a cool thing to have, but very seldom of any use. Why would you run away with space marines - if it goes wrong you are going to have them being chased off the board by vypers/ bikers/ a.n.other, it just seems that most of the armies I play can get something within 6" of a SM squad once they start running & really spoil my day...

killmaimburn wrote:I think Telion may be overpriced.. i think its a goof to have "replace the sergant with" and then charge that much more.. (and likewise to not let him shoot if he confers his ability) Yes he has a sniping storm bolter.. but 76 points of real cost...hmmm. He's definitly my "spawn" of the deck so far (also not crazy for the venerable dreads compared to the other two types)


Agreed, Telion is bunk.

killmaimburn wrote:I want to try the storm, but every combo or trick I imagine involves assualt weaponry I know the scouts have the newly upped shotguns but i was kind of hoping for suspendors (old imperial fist(?) thing from space crusade that made them assualt weapons) for the heavy bolters.
I figure if I can work out how to do it theres some nice modelling oppurtunitys there (scouts hanging out in a black hawk down kind of way mid disembarkation \leaning prone etc)


I think that'll be one for the modellers only, I can't think of any way that 5 Scouts would be a threat. And if they were, I'm struggling to think of an army that can't shoot down an AV10 open-topped vehicle (even if they have to get there to shoot it!).

killmaimburn wrote:I figure a cheese list you could do with the sternhammer is the veiling immortals, max sternguard 2 libbies with the gate thingy. that likewise has some flexibility.(especially when you don't want to be to close and start down)


I think it'd be good, but I'm having trouble seeing the cheese. Against certain builds (ie other SMurfs) it would be devestating, orks (large squads, don't really care about casualties), 'nids (ditto), eldar (large numbers of small, specialised squads) will remain largely unaffected by it. And consider:
Librarian x 2 - 200 pts (for the trick)
10 x stearnguard x 2 - 500pts (for the trick)
10 x space marines x 2 - 340pts (for scoring units)
Assume weapon options for all the above - 100pts (that's about right)

You've only got 360pts left for whatever else you need to do. Plus you will be shoving the best part of 800pts right next to the enemy (who will castle - believe me!) who will retailiate with extreme predudice (assuming you don't scatter & die). It'll work against an unsuspecting player once I think unless the dice gods are with you!

killmaimburn wrote:When drafting smaller lists (with FOC slots free)it might be fun to include devastaters- they cost an awful lot but for 15 more than their chaos counterparts they do come with a signum (new rules, thats pretty funny) Still messy though because a 5 man with las costs twice what a predator does.. Downside being that it works like a chaos icon..what are sergants in dev squads if they aren't disposable (shakes head in mock bewilderment)


I still like devestators, it takes more to kill them than it does a predator (except against stupid pointy eared pansies :x ). My favorite 4 x Heavy Bolter build is still looking pretty valid - woo hoo!
The signum is a bit of bunce I think, it's nice to have, but I expect I'll forget it more often than not!

killmaimburn wrote:Tech marines- some nice bits, some strange bits he can have a servo harness whilst riding a bike.He basically got a better save for the loss of his CC prowess..He will die the first time a plasma gun hits him..so he'll now NEED to sit in a squad(or out of LOS).Possibly making a point for servitors (although I'm not convinced)


I like techmarines, they're cheap enough points-wise that I may actually use one now & then (it's ashame they didn't get the 'free' slot they did in BA & DA though - Ha I found some cheese in the BA & DA codex - put that in your pipe!).
Servitors are still crap. I'll be happy if I ever see them, my opponent has spent points of vastly more expensive guardsmen & I get some free KPs when a gretchin sneezes on them!

killmaimburn wrote:RULES QUESTION
Can he just hide in a vehicle repairing it in 5th ed?Is being inside it being in base contact?
Could you then have a techmarine repairing all weapon destroyeds and immobilised whilst chronus makes you ignore stunned and shaken..Does he take up a transport slot???(I guess he does)..
So the new uber uber landraider would cost 380 hmmm fun value only I suspect :)


Run - run away from the rules questions - wait until someione says "This is how I use techmarines" then say "Yes!" You know it makes sense!


The more I look at this codex, the more I like it! It's quite hard to cheese, there are really good options, but they cost loads!
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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:18 pm

Well we had a game last night.. Ljundhammer brought out his new chaos list (2 dreads lash prince 3 vindies ..oh and a few rhinos with squads in) I brought out my shrike wing (3 assualt squads, 3 tanks 2 max tactical squads with lascannons in (super duper) razorbacks etc)
I decided in the name of fairness (and also because I wanted to be tactically challenged with my new uber thing) to play the dawn of war escalation scenario..
Razorbacks set up as my 2 troops choice with good firing angles in case I got the initative.
Ljundhammer set his prince up forwards with support in good cover.
He rolled on turn one,
I shot him a bit and moved towards the demon prince shielded by a rhino..and failed to hurt the rhino (eh..yes I failed to hurt the rhino).. that continued through the game (he passed 14 out of 15 4+ cover saves on his tanks, He never lost a rhino, and he only lost one vindicator..) a woeful time for the dice and me.. but an interesting curve.. I had more bodies than he could kill..It would have been a draw if it had ended turn 5 inspite of my incedibly poor luck. It is an exceptionally mobile list and that just makes up for nearly all its downsides- as long as it doesn't get dragged into combat with dreadnoughts with 4 attacks base :lol:
So a quick switcheroo is in order to give me another fist (it is a brutal list)
And it was a very fine game

I was reminded I hadn't gone into detail about scouts..
they can be pathfinders
they can go into combat where someone is, to allow the other lot to leave.. pawn sacrifice.
If you take cantor the new stubborn rules mean you can tarpit IN 5TH!!!. ignoring modifiers with ablatives means you can tie up units for what is now ages.
and I reckon there are a few more ideas out there about them too :)
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Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:50 pm

A list which sucks up a game of bad dice rolling is a good list :D How many games and how many different armies will you have to play before you know it's a _great_ list? (or because you are "Doing a Toby" do you know it already? ;) )

KMB knows I've not read the new codex at all yet but I do like the shrike list. The drop-pod one looks good too Ljundhammer - when are you guys going to give it a try?

You also think way too much and way ahead of me on your lists. I'll post some up once I've got and read the book but I doubt they'll be as imaginative as yours (although you've made me think I should plan lists more!)

It also occurred to me that the campaign Wolflord Havoc and I are playing will see the marine codex change half-way through! Wonder if I should stick to the 4th ed one or switch? I'll see what Wolflord Havoc thinks...
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Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:41 pm

killmaimburn wrote:Well we had a game last night.. Ljundhammer brought out his new chaos list (2 dreads lash prince 3 vindies ..oh and a few rhinos with squads in) I brought out my shrike wing (3 assualt squads, 3 tanks 2 max tactical squads with lascannons in (super duper) razorbacks etc)
I decided in the name of fairness (and also because I wanted to be tactically challenged with my new uber thing) to play the dawn of war escalation scenario..
Razorbacks set up as my 2 troops choice with good firing angles in case I got the initative.
Ljundhammer set his prince up forwards with support in good cover.
He rolled on turn one,
I shot him a bit and moved towards the demon prince shielded by a rhino..and failed to hurt the rhino (eh..yes I failed to hurt the rhino).. that continued through the game (he passed 14 out of 15 4+ cover saves on his tanks, He never lost a rhino, and he only lost one vindicator..) a woeful time for the dice and me.. but an interesting curve.. I had more bodies than he could kill..It would have been a draw if it had ended turn 5 inspite of my incedibly poor luck. It is an exceptionally mobile list and that just makes up for nearly all its downsides- as long as it doesn't get dragged into combat with dreadnoughts with 4 attacks base :lol:
So a quick switcheroo is in order to give me another fist (it is a brutal list)
And it was a very fine game


Yep, it was a strange game. The ShrikeWing had the upper hand for 3 & a half turns, but they got dragged down by bodies in the end. A powerfist on the 3rd assault squad I think would have swung it totally in your favour. Unfortunately my Daemon Prince died to cheaply & one of my dreanoughts took an intense dislike to the vindicator sat next to it (2 turn of blasting armour 11 with boltguns :roll: ). However, I think my indestructable rhinos were wearing my Vinicators clothes - they only killed 7 marines in 6 turns between 3 of them :shakesfistwildly:

I must admit the speed of the army took me by surprise, but that also seemed to be its greatest flaw too as the assault marines got diverted out & stuck in 3 separate combats that turned into wars of attrition. That meant that all the anti-personel tanks we left pot-shotting dreadnoughts for a couple of turns. That said, it still took me 4 game turns of combat to whittle down all the assault marines which would have been longer had the dreadnought not managed to single out the assault squad without a powerfist... That's a bit scarey really... I'm not looking forward to you getting used to this army. :?

mattjgilbert wrote:You also think way too much and way ahead of me on your lists. I'll post some up once I've got and read the book but I doubt they'll be as imaginative as yours (although you've made me think I should plan lists more!)


The way I make lists generally doesn't have a great deal to do with effectiveness of single units. I can generally find a unit or 2 in every army and think "I've got to have that!" By putting that into an army the rest of the army falls strait into place:

DeathWing - I like Terminators with Thunderhammers & Land Raiders - it was a no-brainer really!
CantorPod - Stearnguard are cool - how do I get them inti range to do cool stuff? Drop-pods - But that means I get no scoring units:( Take Cantor! - And Viola - an army appears
IG - I love Stormtroopers & hellhounds - Blitzkrieg it is then! An entirely mechanised & deepstriking list appears

That said, I have a way that I like to play 40k. In my head the image of a space marine dakkaing the snot out of xenos scum is just too cool! I tend therefore to have a lot of walking boltguns & heavy bolters in my marine armies, this leads to most of my armies being 'Castleing' - i.e. a mobile firebase of large overlapping units with a monsterous counter-assault capability. Transports are used as moving walls to protect my flanks & direct then enemy into my 'butcher-zone' of 12-24" in front of me. My prodigious use of Vindicators & LRCs merely accentuates this ability.

What it does mean is that I select armies based soley on synergy rather than mathhammer. The humble Rhino & Chimera are usually the most effective parts of my armies, despite rarely killing anything (often the don't shoot for entire games). It alsom means that I have parts of my army that are designed to die in areas that are in-opertune for my opponent - so KPs generally suck for me!

EDIT - I've just remembered - I played you with a dirty game on my part at the meet up, so you know how annoying it is!

This does work better with some armies rather than others - my radical DH & WH armies are generally tragic & can only battle their way to a draw under optimal circumstances. However, the DeathWing & (so far) Chaos armies it seems to work well.

Hope that helps.
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Postby killmaimburn » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:56 pm

(4th time trying to post the others ended up ego trips:) ) Well it did lose against a similarly new list...so that doesn't bode well. :) But I think it has potential once I can get its style down.
I'll play against the OP list next week if Ljundhammer wants..
That new stubborn is going to be tough to beat down.Dang all these little changes :O

James might not put much thought into efficency at the start of an army concept but after each game it evolves- (e.g. this time it had a lash prince, but also he evolves their tactics too ) by 15 games against Mr6 or so his lists rival mine on length of beard.....no really they do :D
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Postby Ljundhammer » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:08 pm

killmaimburn wrote:(4th time trying to post the others ended up ego trips:) ) Well it did lose against a similarly new list...so that doesn't bode well. :) But I think it has potential once I can get its style down.
I'll play against the OP list next week if Ljundhammer wants..
That new stubborn is going to be tough to beat down.Dang all these little changes :O


Yep, can do - watch this space peeps!

killmaimburn wrote:James might not put much thought into efficency at the start of an army concept but after each game it evolves- (e.g. this time it had a lash prince, but also he evolves their tactics too )


All army lists evolve. Things that you think "that's going to work well" are actually poop when they hit the green baize (it's only a game so put up a real good fight), while others you think "I won't need that", or "I can't spare the points" turn out to be invaluable. The lash prince is a prime example - I already had a DP (one of the "I've got to have that" things), but your one with lash was so effective & I could see the potential in my army straight away (originally for pushing stuff further away from me so I can take on an army piece by piece, but I'll see how that evolves).

No stratagy survives contact with the enemy - a list that can adapt & still retain its core principals is in my eyes a good list.

killmaimburn wrote:by 15 games against Mr6 or so his lists rival mine on length of beard.....no really they do :D


Yeah, Dave's a cunning little sod though - he really makes you find the flaws in your army. KMB's armies are generally sledgehammers where Mr6's are poison darts. It's hard work getting lists that'll take on both types of list - it's a challenge I enjoy immensely.

James
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Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:32 pm

Ljundhammer wrote:EDIT - I've just remembered - I played you with a dirty game on my part at the meet up, so you know how annoying it is!
It seemed like a perfectly normal game to me!
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Postby KInG » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:59 pm

@KMB, deploying 2 x razorbacks at the start of the DoW mission was illegal IIRC. Don't the troops and razorback have to be deployed together, seperate maybes, but at the same time?
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