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Help For a Newbie

Postby niteterror » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:32 pm

hay guys and girls ive bin playing orks(40k) for about 2 years now and started dark eldar a little wile ago.however i keep looking at fantacie but wouldnt no were to start a friend of mine said its fairly differnt to 40k.so does any one have any ideas how i could begin to learn the rules and chose a force?
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby Ogregut » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:59 am

Your best bet is to go to your local store and get a intro game (assuming there is a local gaming store near you). Or if any of your friends are into fantasy ask them to teach you.

As for what army, I find there are two ways to finding the right army, either find the model range that appeals to you most or go for the army that plays the way you want i.e if you want strong defence and lots of shooting, then its dwarves you want.

Fantasy is a lot different to 40k but there are some lap overs so Im sure you'll be able to pick it up quite easy.
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby markb » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:51 am

Hi, mate.

I've been playing WH since the days of 4th ed abck in 1992, for me it is the better game, it is a lot more tactical than 40K as the game relies more on movement and close combat. If you get your deployment wrong you are in trouble! Unfortunately recently I haven't played anywhere near as much WH as I would have liked, the Ironbeards just will not be converted to it!

As to where to start that is an interseting question. Unlike 40K there is not really one army that stands out as a good starter army (40K as we all know is SM). Obviously for starters you will need to get the rule book, I would stay away from IoB as although good value unless you are going to collect HE or Skaven its a bit of a waste of money although you could always eBay the models. One of the things about WH is it is a S3 T3 game, unlike 40K which is a S4 T4 game. When you start getting S4 and T4 models they make a lot of diference, unlike 40K where they are just a little bit more likely to survive. This makes Dwarves, Orcs and Warriors of Chaos quite tough

Starting an army in WH for me really comes down to personal taste. I will make a list showing the pros and cons of each army, some I know better then others though.

Empire. The Empire are the Mr Average of Warhammer, virtually all models are average stats of 3s accross the board. They do get some good heavy cavalry and excellent artillery. They are also fairly cheap so will offset their averageness to a point with numbers. They have a decent selection of units and some fairly good elite troops with good missile troops although BS3 does somewhat limit their effectiveness. The detachment rule is really good as well (I won't list it here but suffice to say it can be a nasty shock for someone). Magic is average. If I had to make a recommendation for a starter army then these would definately be one of them.

Elves. I have lumped these together as they have virtually the same strengths and weaknesses. Like Eldar and DE they can dish out a lot of pain but are very fragile as they limited to T3 and don't have really very heavy troops armour wise. The HE do have the universal rule of always strike first which is useful, though not as useful as it was under 7th ed. Both armies have good stats except fot the T as noted. They are also quite quick with M5 (WH unlike 40K has different move rates for different races) with good I which means usually they will get to strike first and reroll misses. Missile troops are not the best although DE repeater crossbows are not too bad, and repeater bolt throwers are ok but slightly overpriced. Their magic is good. In general HE and DE are good armies but slightly over priced and can be difficult to use, for that reason I would not recommend them as a starter army. Wood Elves are a bit different, they have all the main strengths and weaknesses of HE and DE but their troops are mainly all skirmishers and are a nightmare to use unless you really know what you are doing so I would stay away from them for now.

Dwarves. Dwarves are tough but slow, they are an excellent defensive army as even their basic infantry are heavy infantry. The entire army can be equipped with great weapons which add +2S and takes them all up to at least S5. They get some of the best artillery in the game which can be further upgraded by the use of Runes. Missile troops are not too bad, the handgunners are useful but expensive. As I said they are slow, they do not get any cavalry at all and have a move of 3". The best way to use them is to sit back with big blocks of heavy infantry, shoot the enemy for a couple of turns then take the charge and hope he bounces off. Dwarves are also non magical which means you will have nothing to do in your magic phase but you do gain an extra 2 dispel dice. Dwarven Runes are slightly overpriced compared to magic items but you can mix and match to create custom items which is more flexible. Dwarven tropps are better than most others with T4 and WS4 and excellent Ld meaning they are hard to break but low I of 2. I would recommend Dwarves if you are a defensive player.

Orcs and Goblins. They are fun to play but unpredictable due to Animosity, you either win by lots or lose by lots. Animosity can be countered to a point by the use of Black Orc characters. They have one of the widest selection of troops in the game. I will be honest and say that I have not seen the new army book so am basing my opinions on the old one but they will not have changed that dramatically. Orcs are tough with T4 but have poor initiative (2) and average Ld of 7. Choppas are good as it adds +1S on the first turn of combat. Goblins are poor but do have cheapness on their side so you can get lots for your points and Night Goblins can have some really nasty suprises in their units with fanatics and netters but are prone to running away due to poor Ld. Cavalry is fairly good but not true heavy cavalry but their light cavalry is quite good and cheap. Magic is destructive. War machines are again average. If you go for an O&G army be prepared to paint a lot of models. They are ok as a starter army but with such a wide choice of units it can be difficult to get it right as a newbie.

Ogres. Ogres have got a lot more useful in 8th ed. They are big, tough, strong and quick with multiple wounds but fairly low I. The downside is they are expensive so you will not get a lot of models for your points meaning you will nearly alwys be outnumbered units wise (a 2000 point army has about 23 models in it). They are a very aggresive army but lack decent ranged weaponry. Magic is fairly poor. Not bad as a starting army.

Bretonnians. They get some of the best heavy cavalry in the game and rely on them as their infantry is poor with low WS and BS. The problem is cavalry has been nerfed a bit in 8th ed so I really don't know how well they would work now. Magic is average and missile troops and artillery are poor. I would stay away from Bretonnians.

Tomb Kings are about to be redone so I would wait on them as at the minute they are not great.

Warriors of Chaos. Hard!!!! Chaos Warriors are the best troops in the game bar none with S and T4, good WS, good armour and good Ld but are very expensive so you will generally be outnumbered. Marauders can be used to bulk out the army and they still good troops. They have no real ranged troops at all and so are a very aggresive army so I would stay away from them if you favour a more cautious approach. Chaos armies tend to be quite small but can really pack a punch. Magic is good. I would recommend these as a starter army.

Skaven. Like the O&G they are very unpredictable but this is down to their war machines having a tendency to blow up in their faces. If you take Skaven be prepared for a lot of friendly casualties!. Skaven are fast with good I but their troops are generally of a low quality but is more than made up for with numbers. A big problem with Skaven is once they start breaking it can be hard to stop them running as they have very low Ld. Magic is good and ranged combat is very good if unpredicatble. Again only take this army if you are prepared to paint about 200 models.

Vampire Counts. The vampires themselves are hard as anything but the basic troops are poor. This is offest by the fact they cause Fear and are Unbreakble meaning your opponent has to wipe them out. The downside is once Undead start losing combats they will quickly disintegrate as they take additional casualties equal to the difference in combat resolution scores and as they have low Ld this can be quite punishing. Magic is vital to the VCs as it can be used to add additional models to units. They are also slow as they cannot really march unless the unit is within 12" of the general. They have no ranged weapons of any kind meaning you have to get ac ross the board to fight. Also if you lose your general you are in BIG trouble as your army will start to fall apart. They are ok but again I probably wouldn't recomend them as a starting army.

Lizardmen. Probably the best magic users in the game with Slann Mage Priests. Saurus Warriors are very hard with good WS, S and T but poor I. The army can be bulked out with Skinks which, while not the greatest, are still quite useful as they are skirmishers. They get some interesting war machines and have a great monsterous creature in the form of the Stegadon. Ranged ability is not the best though.

Chaos Daemons. Like the Undead they are unbreakable but suffer from the same Insatbility problem although they don't fall apart when they lose their general. Magic is good. No real ranged ability apart from flamers which can be nasty but are limited in number. The whole army causes fear which is a bonus. Bloodletters are very nasty combat troops with good S And I and Killing Blow.

Don't know much about the Beastmen though.

Sorry for the length of the post but hope you've found it useful
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby Stunty » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:08 am

Dont forget to look at the fluff too..
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby niteterror » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:43 pm

hay okay does anyone what would be a good starter army for 800pts and what edition codex are dwarves on?
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby markb » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:59 pm

The Dwarf codex came out in 2004/5 under 6th ed so is probably due for renewal soon. At that small a points army I would stay away from any of the Elven and Undead lists. Are you thinking of going for Dwarves? Dwarves at 800 points are quite nasty.
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby niteterror » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:03 pm

Hmm yes i keep looking at dwarves as an army but wasnt sure.How do they do in small points games?
my friend told me id have to spend 25% of the points on a leader or something like that?
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby markb » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:03 am

No, the way it works is you have upto 25% on Lords, Upto 25% on Heroes, a minimum of 25% on core, upto 50% on Special and upto 25% on Rare. You would have to have a model to use as a general but it doesn't have to be a Lord, it can be a hero but it cannot be a Battle Standard Bearer. Dwarf Thanes, which are Heroes, are fairly cheap but are really hard with S4, T5, 3A but like all Dwarves have a low initiative, in this case 3. All Dwarven characters, except Slayers, also come as standard with a 4+ armour save. In small games Dwarves would be quite good as even their core choices are better than a lot of other armies Special choices.

If you are going for 800 points to start with what I would suggest is buying the Battalion boxset. With that you get 32 Warriors (which can also be made as Longbeards), 16 Thunderers/Quarrellers and a cannon/organ gun. Also buy a Thane model, prefereably one armed with a Great Weapon, to act as your General.

With the above I would make the following 800 pt army:-

Thane
Great Weapon, Rune of Stone. This combo gives him 3 S6 attacks at WS6 with a 3+ save.
74 pts

14 Warriors
Great Weapons, command. These will hit at S5 with WS4. Put the Thane with them to make them hit harder. They are a Core choice
165 pts

15 Longbeards
Great Weapons, command, Ancesetor Rune. These bad boys are an upgrade to Warriors and are Core and are better than most armies Special Choices. They have WS5 and base S4 so with great weapons this is up to 6. They are also Immune to Panic and every unit within 6" get to reroll failed Panic tests so put them in the cntre of your line. The Ancestor Rune gives them a one time only attempt to be Stubborn on a 4+.
220 pts

12 Thunderers
Shields, command. These are your primary missile troops and are Core. Dwarfs are only BS3 but Dwarven handguns get +1 to hit so essentially makes them BS4. They are S4 with -2 save mod for being armour piercing, they will kill most troops on a 3+. Also they are a credible close combat unit with WS4 and a 5+ save and are a match for most Core infantry so can be used as a third cc unit to get flank charges in etc.
205 pts

Organ Gun
This is a potential game winner in a small game. It has a range of 24" and automatically hits. It fires a number of shots equal to an artillery dice roll. If you don't roll a misfire first time and you roll low you can reroll the dice, if you get a misfire on the reroll it just doesn't fire (if you get a misfire the first time there is a chance it will blow up). This means that it can cause between 2 and 10 hits a turn at S5 and -3 save mod.
120 pts

As with all dwarven armies the basic premise of this army is to sit back for a couple of turns, shoot the crap out of the enemy (targetting his most dangerous units such as Swordmasters, heavy cavalry, Chaos Warriors etc) then either wait till he's in charge range and hit him or sit and take the charge and rely on your T4 and 5+ saves to make him bounce off. You will not take a massive amount of damage from shooting as most missile units are S3 and BS3 so they be hitting you on 5's (for long range) and wounding on 5's with you saving on 5's. The only problem you might face is against magic as in an 800 pt game your opponent could easily take a lvl 3 mage, although doing this means he won't have other close combat units. This is a problem with Dwarves in general and in larger games I would recommend taking a Runesmith/Lord with some Runes of Spellbreaking to soften the magic against you.

When you expand the army take your Warriors and Longbeards up to at least 24 models to give you 5 ranks (if you put a character in there). I would also suggest taking a Lord with either shield bearers (with a Rune of Stone or shield he will have a 1+ armour save) or an Oath Stone. Put him in a unit of Hammerers and you have one of the hardest units in the game as they are Stubborn, Immune to Fear and Terror as long as the Lord is in there and have S6. Also think about a Gyrocopter as these are very good at war machine hunting (but are an absolute git to put together). Miners are also good for this as they can enter play from any board edge.

Hope this has been helpful.
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby BigJim » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:12 pm

Before jumping in to buy army I would definately suggest trying to get a demo game or 2 - or try playing using a friends army.

The reason being is that 40K and Fantasy are incredibly different - and some people find that they don't get on with one system having played the other.

As stated by Orgegut - Fantasy is a much more tactical game. A lot more of the focus is on the movement phase with both deployment and positioning being key to wining the game.

Finding the right army for yourself in fantasy is something that will happen over time - the reason being is that you need to find an army that fits your play style. Dwarves would make a good first army as they are quite balanced and will do well against most opponents. Try and play games against different armies so that you can start to understand the themes behind each one.

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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby niteterror » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:49 pm

If you are going for 800 points to start with what I would suggest is buying the Battalion boxset. With that you get 32 Warriors (which can also be made as Longbeards), 16 Thunderers/Quarrellers and a cannon/organ gun. Also buy a Thane model, prefereably one armed with a Great Weapon, to act as your General.

With the above I would make the following 800 pt army:-

Thane
Great Weapon, Rune of Stone. This combo gives him 3 S6 attacks at WS6 with a 3+ save.
74 pts

14 Warriors
Great Weapons, command. These will hit at S5 with WS4. Put the Thane with them to make them hit harder. They are a Core choice
165 pts

15 Longbeards
Great Weapons, command, Ancesetor Rune. These bad boys are an upgrade to Warriors and are Core and are better than most armies Special Choices. They have WS5 and base S4 so with great weapons this is up to 6. They are also Immune to Panic and every unit within 6" get to reroll failed Panic tests so put them in the cntre of your line. The Ancestor Rune gives them a one time only attempt to be Stubborn on a 4+.
220 pts

12 Thunderers
Shields, command. These are your primary missile troops and are Core. Dwarfs are only BS3 but Dwarven handguns get +1 to hit so essentially makes them BS4. They are S4 with -2 save mod for being armour piercing, they will kill most troops on a 3+. Also they are a credible close combat unit with WS4 and a 5+ save and are a match for most Core infantry so can be used as a third cc unit to get flank charges in etc.
205 pts

Organ Gun
This is a potential game winner in a small game. It has a range of 24" and automatically hits. It fires a number of shots equal to an artillery dice roll. If you don't roll a misfire first time and you roll low you can reroll the dice, if you get a misfire on the reroll it just doesn't fire (if you get a misfire the first time there is a chance it will blow up). This means that it can cause between 2 and 10 hits a turn at S5 and -3 save mod.
120 pts

Hope this has been helpful.[/quote]

8) you can get all this from the box set?i didnt realise how much was in it
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby markb » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:10 pm

Yes mate, it really is a good starter set. Also if you don't want to fork out for a Thane you should have enough bits left over to do a conversion using the unit champion bits.
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby niteterror » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:34 pm

Woo that is great im happy with the help man il try and set up a few intro games with my friends.is there anything else that might come in handy for playing dwarfs
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby Stunty » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:52 pm

I was thinking of sticking my dwaves on ebay, I have the army book, contents of skull pass and a battalion (most of which I think is still on sprues) if your interested I can get pics posted..
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Re: Help For a Newbie

Postby markb » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:05 pm

The best advice I can think of is to make sure you hit your opponents harder units with your missile stuff before he gets to you to thin them out, you may be tough but you're not invincible. Also I would set up very compact with your units right next to each other and the Longbeards in the middle so everyone can benefit from the Panic reroll of the Longbeards. Also you will get to support each other and if you opponent has long units then chances are when he charfes he is going to clip the flanking units.

There is no real benefit to keeping your Thane general close as there is with other armies as all Dwarves are Ld9 base and the only characters/models with Ld 10 are Lords and Slayers.

As I said you will be at a disadvantage in the magic phase but when your opponent rolls the 2D6 for the Winds of Magic you get the higher of the 2 dice dispel dice plus an additional 2D6. You will need to decide what is best to dispel, sometimes an opponent will target your units with a magic missile and you think you will have to dispel it but have a look at the description, if it is only S3 it means that it will wound you on 5s and you will get 5s to save so likelyhood is it will not cause much damage. Ones to watch out for are spell that will increase your opponets S as taking a unit to S4 or 5 will cause you a lot of problems. Your Organ Gun will be fairly vulnerable to light cavalry so if possible set it up in such a way that it will be hard for your opponent to charge or alternatively take the light cavalry out first before turning on the harder stuff.

In combat you will be hitting last due to Great Weapons (with their low I of 2 Dwarves usually hit last anyway) but when you do hit you will be hitting most things on 3's and more than likely killing on 2's. A good thing about Dwarves is their high Ld so even if you lose a combat it is unlikely to be by much and you are unlikely to run away

When you expand your army think about giving Runes of Sanctuary to units that can take Runic Standards, this will increase your magic resistance further as it gives the unit 1D6 magic resistance and is a fairly cheap upgrade. Slayers are always good as although they are expensive they are the closest the Dwarves get to an expendable unit. Because they are Unbreakable a unit of 10 can cause havoc as they can hold an opponent up for at least a turn and you can use this time to position one of your heavy hitting units to get him in the flank. As I siad previously a Runesmith/Lord is a must with a couple of Runes of Spellbreaking to further dent your opponents magic. Also, unlike normal wizards, Runesmiths/Lords are really quite good combat troops, as good as most normal Hero lvl characters, so you can tool them up a bit and put them in the front line.

Further expansion Hammerers with a Lord are an absolute must. Last time I used mine they munched through the Masque, a unit of Plague Bearers and a unit of Horrors for hardly any loss. Put your Lord on Shieldbearers and he gains +2 to his save and 2 extra attacks at WS5 S4 giving him 6 attacks in total. Nasty.

There are loads of things with the Dwarves but I'm sure your sick of reading all the stuff I keep writing!
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