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Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Discussing rules for WFB

Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby DaBoss » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:39 pm

Back a week or so, The Colonel and Me were having a Fantasy battle between High Elves and Skaven, when a situation arose during a close combat.

Set the Scene:
The Colonel had declared a charge with his Prince on Griffin and an Ellyrian Chariot against my Plague Censer Bearers on the left flank of my battle line. The Prince was found to be half an inch out of range but the Chariot continued and killed 5 of the 10 Plague Censer Bearers, who due to being within 12" of the Plague Furnace were Ld9 Stubborn and stayed (but lost Frenzy)

Image

In my turn the Plague Monk unit including the Plague Furnace flank charges the Chariot and destroy it with impact hits.

Image

Now we had a bit of a debate on what should now happen; the Plague Monks are frenzied so must overrun, but the Plague Censer Bearers are not and there is nothing to pursue and are in the direct path of the Plague Monks overrun.

What should happen next?

The Colonel believed that the Plague Monks would move through the Plague Censer Bearers and hit the Griffin and displace the Censer Bearers behind the unit. Whereas I believed that the Censer Bearers would stop the Plague Monks overrun as you can't move through your own units.

We played it as The Colonel had advised as the Plague Censer Bearers were below 5 unit strength.
This allowed a unit of Silverhelms to flank the Plague Monks.

Image

This Flank charge did minimal damage, while the Plague Furnace impact hit killed the Griffin, as the Plague Monks were Unbreakable due to the Furnace, this setup a flank charge from another Plague Monk unit with Lord Skrolk in it.
At which point The Colonel conceded as Lord Skrolk is a nasty character and the Silverhelms were likely to lose a BattleStandard Bearer to fumes (already taken 1 wound in previous combat) and the Prince was also going to have to take d6 Toughness tests from the Plague Furnace Fumes as well the plunger of death.

Image

Now couple of things have been debated about this turn of events.

1) The overrun by the Plague Monks - was this done right?
2) How do units align during an overrun?

In the first one - 'The Overrun':
On p43 - Overrun
If a unit charges into combat and, by the end of that turn's combat phase all its enemies have been wiped out, the unit may make a pursuit move, even with nobody left alive to pursue. This is an overrun move and represents the unit surging forwards, hungry to find more enemies to fight.

As I am frenzied I have to do this special pursuit 'Overrun'.
But just above in the 'Pursuing' description it states.
Pursuers always move thier full pursuit distance unless thier pursuit takes them into comtact with enemy, friendly units or impassable terrain, in which case they stop immediately.

So the Plague Censer Bearers should have blocked my pursuit 'Overrun' move?
But then turning to p45 - Pursuit into fresh enemy, we have:
If the fresh enemy holds its ground, and since pursuit into fresh enemy is treated as a new charge, the pursuers must endeavour to bring as many charging models into combat as possible. This means that it is normally necessary to wheel in order to maximise the number of combatants.

So the following diagram shows what I think should have happened in the Overrun.

Image

The Plague Monks would have failed to overrun, the Prince and Griffin would charge the Censer Bearers and overrun into the Plague Furnace along with the Silverhelms. The Furnace and Plague Monks would still be unbreakable unless The Colonel got very lucky and did 6 wounds on the Furnace, after surviving any Fume Tests.

Then Lord Skrolk and his unit would of Flanked the Silverhelms and it would be likely the same result as before with the High Elves destroyed.

Image

The second question: How do units align during an overrun?
The same could be said for charges?

The rules state p21 - Manoeuvring during a charge
When a unit charges an enemy, the player must endeavour to bring the maximum number of models from both sides into combat. This can sometimes be achieved by moving the chargers straight forward, nut often it will be necessary to wheel slightly to face the enemy.

So when charging the Plague Monks and the Furnace or the other way round, you will still need to touch the Plague Furnace as this will bring the most models into combat (both the Furnace and the Priest on top) plus as many other Plague Monks from the attached unit. Given that a Griffin is on a 50mm base - against the Plague Monks you would have to touch 2 Monks on one side of the Furnace directly, with 1 more at corners and the remaining 10mm touching the Plague Funace.

Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby mattjgilbert » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:36 pm

I agree that the Plague Monks would have failed to overrun, being blocked by the Censer Bearers.

As for contacting the most models, yes corner to corner counts so the same is true if the corner-corner is against the furnance I think?
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby Angelwing » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:06 am

Plague monks wouldn't have been able to overrun.
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby DaBoss » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:32 am

Angelwing wrote:Plague monks wouldn't have been able to overrun.


Thats what I thought, I think The Colonel wanted to make sure he got a Flank charge on the Plague Monks with his Silverhelms (which I think could of got anyway) as they were on the cusp of their charge range. Making me move closer put them within range easily.
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby DaBoss » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:34 am

mattjgilbert wrote:As for contacting the most models, yes corner to corner counts so the same is true if the corner-corner is against the furnance I think?


I think The Colonel was in the belief that overruns are directly forward (no wheeling), so my unit would only hit him with 3 Plague Monks, no Plague Furnace.
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby Ogregut » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:25 pm

I sided with The Colonel on the night that you would have been able to overrun, but it seems like you wouldn't.

As for the contacting most models, had you overrun (or the he charged you) by he could have been in contatct with only 3 plague monks and not the furnace, as 3 is the maximum numbers of models he can contact. The furnace is still only one model. Avoiding the furnace this way is not in the spirit of the game but by RAW it is legal (I believe!).
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby mattjgilbert » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:31 pm

Surely he can contact 4 other bases?
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby DaBoss » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:52 pm

Ogregut wrote:as 3 is the maximum numbers of models he can contact. The furnace is still only one model. Avoiding the furnace this way is not in the spirit of the game but by RAW it is legal (I believe!).


The thing is the Griffin has a 50mm base (Monster), so saying only 3 bases of Plague Monks is 60mm, but what about corners?

mattjgilbert wrote:Surely he can contact 4 other bases?


The middle 2 Plague Monks make 40mm, then either you have 1 Plague Monk touching 10mm and the other is corner-to-corner
Or you have an overlap of 5mm on both edge Plague Monks.

So it should be 4 Plague Monks not 3 that is the maximum you can contact.

Looking at the actual game situation, my Plague Monk unit is 30 models in a 6 x 5 formation but with a Plague Furnace in the middle, which means it's flanked by two blocks of 3 x 5 Plague Monks.

So however you charge the front of the unit, you will touch 3 Plague Monks and the Plague Furnace (either corner-to-corner, or by 5mm)

Makes sense?
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby mattjgilbert » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:02 pm

Yes - that's what I thought it was :D
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby Ogregut » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:46 pm

In that case yes, the furnace would have to be in combat!
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby TheColonel » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:59 pm

We cleared up the over run being blocked by the censer bearers but the main thing is the overun of the furnace unit, as an over run cannot wheel so wherever it touches the opposing unit is where it stays until the end of the combat phase when you redress the ranks
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Re: Pursuit Move issue that arose in a game

Postby DaBoss » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:19 pm

TheColonel wrote:We cleared up the over run being blocked by the censer bearers but the main thing is the overun of the furnace unit, as an over run cannot wheel so wherever it touches the opposing unit is where it stays until the end of the combat phase when you redress the ranks


But you forgot this section of the rules (Remember a 'Overrun' is just another 'Pursuit'):

But then turning to p45 - Pursuit into fresh enemy, we have:
If the fresh enemy holds its ground, and since pursuit into fresh enemy is treated as a new charge, the pursuers must endeavour to bring as many charging models into combat as possible. This means that it is normally necessary to wheel in order to maximise the number of combatants.
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