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High Elves 1500pts

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High Elves 1500pts

Postby samuelgrimwade » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:31 am

Hi all, can't make up my mind on this so I thought I'd see if anyone else has some ideas.

I've got a high elf army based around the models in the Iland of blood set (I love the models so wanted to use as many as possible). Currently I'm always goign to go with the following for 1500pt games.

29 Seaguard - full command and shields
10 swordmasters - bladelord
10 swordmasters - bladelord
5 reavers - champ + bows/spears
5 reavers - champ +bows/spears

this totals 950 pts

What I can't decide is what to spend the other 650 pts on. - specifically with regard to m characters.

I'm thinking of going with a prince and 2 lvl1 mages - the mages will e there to boost the swordmasters and the prince gives the seaguard some extra hit.

But then I get swayed towards going with deffinates and almost forgetting the magic phase and getting 3 fighting characters t bolster each unit.

I like to play defensively and this is tournament play, just friendly matches and I'm looking at adding units because I like them rather than having mass game winning appeal.

Any suggestions?

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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby mattjgilbert » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:01 am

At 1500 points you may have to make a choice between magic or no magic. If you can choose magic lore(s) that will give you the hitting power you need in combat, you can focus on mages and save on the prince.

If you want a decent combat character, I've always felt they need to be mobile and not stuck on foot in an infantry unit.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby BANE » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:59 am

Hi Samuel

A couple of suggestions, HE are ok in each phase of the game but are not going to be able to cope against armies with more specific strengths, this is where HE biggest assest comes in, magic.

HE magic is best used to strenghten and protect the units you have and make them more powerful in the various phases, for example swordmasters hit hard but die to return attacks in there droves, use magic to counter their weeknesses, you now have T5 swordmasters for example, much better. Dont really need to worry too much about a cc lord or prince at this level as troops are capable in cc as is and points are at a premimum. A BSB is a most in most armies but again at this level HE can maybe do without due to good LD.

So my first suggestion is get a mage of some description in there, arch mage is best but if short on ponts look at a lv2 with silverwand to give hime 3 spells or seerstaff to pick the 2 you need.

2nd suggestion is look at the size of your reaver unit, i suggest 1 unit of 10-13 models is better as you can then flank an enemy unit and hit it in the side when its charged one of your units, this cancels steadfast and makes the enemy more likely to run.

I would also look at the size of your swordmasters, my veiw is mulitiples of 7 depending on how you intend to use them, 7 is about right to act as a supporting unit to your spears whilst been small enough to not attract tooo much attention, 14, 21, 28 are the size of units you need to lool at if you want to go charging across the board as these guys get shoot alot you will need to protect them with magic or have enough in the unit to lose 50% or more as you chase the enemy across the table.

Seaguard look good but i would prefer 2 units, you can afford to reduce unit size if your chasing points, but wouldnt go lower than 20.

If your planning on playing defensive then counter attacking there are better HE units available that can take more damage as the enemy advances, Phoniex Guard and White Lions for example, however i understand your using IOB set.

Lastly 1500 is a very difficult points level for HE as its an elite army, you get very little boots on the ground and with the madatory core choices to take its hard to get the units that you really should have in a HE list, they become a better army at higher points levels.

Hope this helps, good luck.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby Ogregut » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:58 am

I would go for a Lv 3 Archmage with the seer staff and shadow magic. Againest armies like chaos, demons and dark elves use the spells that reduce S and T. Againest armies like lizardmen, dwarves and undead use pit of shades.

With your remaining points I would get a cheap hero (great weapon and bow) to put in the sea guard, maybe make him the battle standard bearer? That should leave you enough to get a 2nd smaller unit of seaguard.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby markb » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:39 pm

As said above 1500 pts is really hard for HE, even 2000 is a struggle under 8th ed with the minimum core size.

I know you want to stay with the IoB models but personally I don't rate Reavers, they are too overpriced. For around the same points you can get 5 Silverhelms with champion which are a harder hitting and more survivable cc unit due to a better save and lances, 12 archers which will provide more missile fire or a chariot which is more survivable due to higher T and save. The only advantage Reavers have over any of them is their mobility due to being fast cavalry but they are too few in number to be effective as a missile unit and don't hit hard enough or have a good enough save to be a cc cavalry unit.

As for characters, I too would go with a level 3 archmage with silver wand, staff of solidity (to ignore that first inevitable miscast) and the channeling staff for a guaranteed +1 power/dispel dice. Any points left over I would look at a low points hero and some more combat units.

I also agree with Bane above in that you should look at reorganising your units, my Swordmasters are a unit of 14 to maximise killing ability.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby mattjgilbert » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:43 pm

I think the reavers are there because his initial core set of models are those from IoB.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby markb » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:11 pm

I realise that he wants to go with the IoB stuff but inevitably he will want to expand his army and I was just hopefully giving him another perspective. It may be that he finds Reavers effective but I just feel they are overpriced. Nice models though. Another slight problem with the Reavers is if you want to give them a command you will have to use the metal ones which are a slightly different style to the IoB ones, especially the mounts, and can make the unit look a bit patch worked. I had the same problem with the Swordmasters, I have a load of the metal ones and wanted to use the IoB command with them but they just don't go together so I ended up having to eBay another unit of the plastic ones.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby samuelgrimwade » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:30 pm

Hi all thanks for the advice.

Since my initial post I've decided to up the numbers in the swordmasters - although I'm thinking units of 12 to start of with, 6 wide, as supporting units - but I've got the models to make the to units of 14 after some testing.

I include the reavers because I love the models and like having something to do in the movement phase that isn't normal troop stuff - I take them for an enjoyment factor really - but I totally agree for the points silverhelms do appear the better bet in competitive terms

I supposed half of the reason I've gone with the swordmasters / reavers / seaguard is that I read alot online that the initial IOB High Elf selection is quite weak / not well balanced, out of stubbornness and a challenge I'm trying to focus on using those models for my initial force and adding afterwards - I'm kind of testing myself to overcome the initial problems the units have - plus I have 3 sets worth due to swapping!

appreciate the advice on the mage - I was toying with getting 2 level 1 mages and giving them both lore of beasts and having the knowledge that the signature spell is going to really help my units. I really like using magic - again I like having something to do in every phase - but want the certainty of what spells I'm going to have - so for me I'm looking at what signature spell really stands out - does anyone have a preferred signature spell (not specific for high elf use but overall)?

Thanks for all the advice guys - I'm going to work up a list and post it today - would appreciate any thoughts.

Sam
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby markb » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:08 pm

I tend to go with High Magic, its easier to get off due to it having been written under the old rules and as such the casting values are relatively low. If you have a level three Archmage then it should be quite easy to cast them. Flames of the Phoenix can cause utter havoc against horde type armies with low T like Skaven as all models will take a S3 hit and it also means he will have to expend power dice in his own phase to dispel it or watch the remnants of his unit take S4 hits and the less dice he has to cast with the less damage he can do to you. Vauls Unmaking is really good against magic reliant armies (especially that really annoying one that Chaos have that negates all magic weapons in base contact) and Curse of Arrow Attraction is always good for a laugh if you have enough missile units to make it worth while. Plus having Drain Magic, providing you leave enough dice left at the end of your phase, can really ruin your opponents magic phase, that extra +3 to cast can be a bitch.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby samuelgrimwade » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:30 am

Thanks for all the advice fellas, I'm looking at going for an archmage using High Magic (mainly for the stubborn spell, flames of the phoenix, and the magic missle spell - although curse of arrow attraction appeals, but probably only when I add in a few bolt throwers). I'm thinking I'll start with a level 3 and minimal items - so probably the one for an extra spell (less points and with rolling for 4 spells I'm bound to get the 3 I want - don't know the maths but it strikes me as very likely)

So now my list runs like this:-

Archmage (lvl 3) - Silverwand - (possibly ring of fury) - high magic
29 Seaguard - full command and shields - Banner of Discipline
12 swordmasters - bladelord
12 swordmasters - bladelord
5 reavers - champ + bows/spears
5 reavers - champ +bows/spears

This comes in around 1,265 (1305 if archmage has (ring of fury)

I've got a chariot and a bolt thrower, so I'm thinking of adding those in purely because i like the models and think that it will add some fun elements for playing - however I'll wait till i get to 2000pts for that - on my long march to 3000pts!

So I've got 245 points left (or 200 depending)

I'm thinking cheap noble - great weapon, armor of caledor to act as my general - he will go in the seaguard unit, using their banner for +1 ld that he can then convey to the rest of the army.

leaving me just over 110 (ish) pts - might get that chariot in!

What do you think guys?

Plan would be to form a solid line around the seaguard - deploying either 5 wide by 6 ranks with swordmasters to each side - I am toying with using them 10 wide and having the swordmasters behind them - whe the enemy is close I'll reform to the 5 wide by 6 revealing the swordmasters - so for the first few turns of the game they will be effectively shielded from shooting by the wide seaguard unit.

- the reavers would go shooting off down flanks chasing war-machines and pulling units of out his battle-line - basically giving him something to react to.

Mage would boost the crap out of units and look to use magic missile to wither away his cheaper horde style units.

I've not gone for loads of units because then I can almost guarantee what will get into combat with the enemy - if play defensively I'd be worried be would just avoid the units I want to get in combat - by only have one large combat unit and then supports I'm thinking that if he wants to get in combat then it going to have to be the unit I want because it'll be the only option I present him - this makes sense to me but i do worry sometimes about having such limited amount of units.

So what do people think?

Sam
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby markb » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:25 am

The problem with your noble is he is going to die. Very easily. He may be able to dish out some damage due to 3 S6 attacks but T3 really hurts all Elves. This is a problem under 8th ed as under 7th ed you could kill everyone in base contact due to Speed of Asuryan and not have to worry about attacks back but now you do so survivability is paramount. As you will only be able to give him at best heavy armour he will only have a 5+ save which really combined with T3 is not good enough, especially if you are wanting him as your general. I would consider spending a bit more on him and giving him heavy armour and the Enchanted Shield for a 3+ save and 6+ parry ward save. Give him the Sword of Might for 20 pts and he is S5 and throw in the Talisman of Loec to reroll failed wounds. Hopefully he can still dish out quite a bit of damage but will be a bit more survivable in return. With the 110 pts left over you could get the chariot for 85 and have enough points for the noble I just described.

The Sea Guard should be quite immovable but I would consider putting them 7x4 (and a bit). This will give you 18 shots a turn and if they are charged 29 attacks! (All seven can fight due to corner to conrer and everyone has frontage of five, front rank can fight with Sea Master adding +1A, second rank for spears, third rank for martial prowess and forth rank support) The last 2 models would form a small rank to soak up casualties to keep rank bonus so you could take 3 (or 4 if you put the noble in there) casualties before you lose a rank.

Another problem with only having the one big unit of combat troops is it is going to attract a lot of fire. One good hit from a template weapon like a mortar or stone thrower and you can pretty much kiss it goodbye.

I think you should be ok though, good luck!
Last edited by markb on Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby BANE » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:53 am

Hi Sam,

Seems more solid and thought through now. You have got a definitive strategy in mind of a defensive force so my suggestions are based on that.

I would look at that 2nd unit of seaguard, helps with your line and provides someone to share the pain of the enemies charge. You get more bows incase u get arrow attraction as you are taking high magic, fire both units at the one you cast the spell on, still won't do much but it makes it almost damaging! You can still do your reform to allow your SM into the fight.

Still think you should increase your reavers unit size to 10+ so you can flank and break ranks, you can also add your bow fire into the unit you cursed. Tbh I agree with others and think you can drop these but if you do have them what do they do in current set up? If its engine hunting they ain't great as shooting bows is ineffective against them so you have to charge them really, this means you going straight down the enemies throat thru his army to get to them or spending 3+ turns to flank around the sides. I am using them at the minute as a unit of 13 no upgrades, I use them off to a flank to charge the unit against my seaguard to help break them, I then carry over into the unit engaged with the other seaguard unit to help them too. This prevents my charge receiving units getting dragged down in combat. Works a dream for me.

For engine hunting use eagles, one of best units we have for points cost, I know you only have IOBS stuff, but you said you had 3 so if you can bring yourself to do it carve up 2 of your griffons to turn them into eagles, that's what I am doing and with a little work they look great. You might be resistant to cutting up these lovely models but I bought 6 sets so I have way too many for normal use.

Finally I wouldnt consider the BSB at this level, he is a must for all armies in large games and most at this level too, however high LD and you are taking High for courage and you are covered here.

Still don't think you have enough points for a arch mage (good choice) a fighting lord/prince and effective numbers/size of units so I would still avoid the lord/prince altogether.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby TheColonel » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:13 am

Hello bud, for the hero why not consider putting him on a great eagle. This has a twofold bonus, the first gives him the mounted armoursave and the second is an additional wound as you use the highest wound characteristic of the pair. Upon the eagle he is a bit more of a target but you can protect him with manouvering correctly and presenting other, maybe more enticing, targets. The next problem is what to equip him with... This is actually quite simple, Dragon armour (gives a 2+ ward against flaming attacks), Sheild of Ptolos (1+ armour save against shooting attacks), Sword of might (+1 strength). This leaves 5 whole points which can be spent in a few ways, you could take a luckstone but if still worried about war machies you have the ironcurse icon and if you feel he needs a bit more help in combat the potion of foolhardiness is a good option. Of course if you take a mundane lance this gives you more options as you don't need the sword of might.

Let me know what you think.
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby BANE » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:45 pm

@ markb and the colonel,

Why would you suggest the sword of might when you can just take a great weapon for a better result?
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Re: High Elves 1500pts

Postby markb » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:09 pm

I suggest it coz it means he can take a shield as well to improve his survivability as i feel with T3 and a 5+ save he is too vulnerable, if you increase it to 4+ or even 3+ with the Enchanted Shield and a 6+ parry save he has more chance of surviving the return attacks. Plus if you give him the Talisman of Loec for I think 10 pts he gets to reroll failed wounds.
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