Just an FYI (waiting on KMB's tank-fest batrep), more tanks are more survivable than less tanks.

The above list was far better than the previous list. Got to turn 3, but I think KMB would have pipped me in the end. But I gave him one hell of a bloody nose doing it!

EDIT: I've reworked the list and managed to get MOAR plasma, MOAR accurate plasma, and MOAR melta, for the tax of a single chimera whilst keeping my scoring units the same... Damn I love guard.

IG: 1750

HQ: CCS - 135
3 x melta, chimera

Elite - stormtroopers - 105
2 x melta

Troop - veterans - 170
3 x plasma, chimera

Troop - veterans - 170
3 x plasma, chimera

Troop - Platoon - 405
PCS - 3 x flamer, chimera
Inf - plasma gun, chimera
Inf - plasma gun, chimera
SWS - 3 x melta gun (steal a ride from either an inf squad or the PCS)

Fast - Devil dog - 135
MM

Fast - Devil dog - 135
MM

Heavy - Leman russ - 165
Lascannon

Heavy - Leman russ - 165
Lascannon

Heavy - Leman russ - 165
Lascannon

1750 pts
61 troops (one more than before )
11 tanks (one less than before )

6 melta guns (one more than before )
8 plasma guns (same as before & most are at BS4 now )
I think it's worth losing a chimera for...

TBH I thought it was your fever talking when you didn't optimise your infantry vs mechvetspam.

Yes your new list is better against me..but its not better in 6th, your lacking long range ap2/high str.
For anti tank your leman russ might as well be autocannons.
Your deepstrikers rely on not matching up against someone who also castles perpetually.
Leaving you with your chem dogs..
and they can't touch flyers.
I don't believe stuff other peeps have said about symmetry being a fluff constraint.. Its about redundancy. But here.. you have a big gap in what your army can face..
How about in obeying the rules (and new squadron rules which are nice)
You drop 1 leman russ and take 2 hydras combined.. combined they fire at flyers.. combined they fire at units and do something.

(and thats before we talk about how your battlecannons are 0% useful against the new T5 lookout sir nob bikers)
Have you considered Allies? basically if you rule out casting orders/psychic powers swap around ICs you can pick and choose to fill the gap from other codexs..

Instead of getting vendettas

You know, I was thinking along the same lines over lunch with allies...

The problem is I'm ruling out blobs as inefficient. That means I'm left with inf squads and vets. They don't survive outside vehicles, therefore I need vehicles. A few vehicles don't survive, therefore I need lots of them. The most efficient way to get vehicles into an army is to take IG. I'm already IG. I'm a sad panda.

I need to scoot, but I'm thinking about this on the way home...

OK, the thoughts of an idiot follow. I'm not sure if this works, but it's a first draft with allies!

Grey Knights 1750 with IG allies

Grey Knights:
HQ: Coteaz - 100

Elite: Vindicare assassin - 145

Troop: - Henchmen - 144
6 x accolytes, 3 x plasma guns
1 x jokaero
Chimera

Troop: - Henchmen - 144
6 x accolytes, 3 x plasma guns
1 x jokaero
Chimera

Troop: - Henchmen - 144
6 x accolytes, 3 x plasma guns
1 x jokaero
Chimera

Troop: - Henchmen - 144
3 x accolytes, 3 x plasma guns
1 x jokaero
3 x servitors, 3 x multi melta (coteaz goes here)
Chimera

Heavy: Dreadnought - 135
2 x twin linked auto cannons, psycannon bolts

Heavy: Dreadnought - 135
2 x twin linked auto cannons, psycannon bolts

Heavy: Dreadnought - 135
2 x twin linked auto cannons, psycannon bolts

IG allies:
HQ: Primaris psycher - 70
No idea re: force weapon or psychic powers...

Elite: Stormtroopers - 105
2 x meklta guns

Troop: Veteran squad - 155
3 x plasma guns, chimera

Troop: Veteran squad - 155
3 x plasma guns, chimera

That's 56 troops & 9 AV12

I'm not really convinced by this to be honest, I think it's a bad version of my previous IG list with the lovely AV14 russes replaced with AV12 Psyflemen.

But by the Emperor it can dakka!
4 lascannons/plasma cannons/heavy flamers
3 multi meltas
6 twin linked S8 autocannons
8 melta guns
12 plasma guns
6 multi lasers
6 heavy flamers (on chimeras)

I need to refine it a lot (read, switch it so that GK are allies are better I think...), but is the concept sound???

Goalkeeper = Dr Octopus.
Left winger, Speedy Gonzales.
Right winger, Donald Campbell.
Props, the thing and the hulk.
Goal attack, Galactus.
Midfield playmaker, Harry Bellafonte.
Haven't figured the rest out yet, but the coach is Machiavelli.

ruffian4 wrote:Right winger, Donald Campbell.

Swap him for newt gingrich , too much speed on the flanks will leave your midfield all on his lonesome soloing.

Ljundhammer wrote:Elite: Vindicare assassin - 145

Troop: - Henchmen - 144
6 x accolytes, 3 x plasma guns
1 x jokaero
Chimera

IG allies:
HQ: Primaris psycher - 70
No idea re: force weapon or psychic powers...

Elite: Stormtroopers - 105
2 x meklta guns

?

I don't like the assassin for 4d6 armour pen, 14 average? Not good enough, and sniping models out? everyone can do that again..get something resilient and shooty in there instead to do the same. (real shame the callidus can't assault after DSing being able to kill an HQ by magically appearing and demanding a challenge would be quite fluffy)

I wouldn't give a minor partner the table of rolls. squad buffs and army wide stuff won't be usable by most of your force..(e.g. no invisibility for corteazs gunwagon). but I do think psychic powers are the way forward (I'll show you on sunday )
Think all the acolytes in the cheap gun wagons are a waste... they can't shoot and its just more things to roll when the transport pops..drop it to one or 2 and see if that allows you a 5th main force troop ..something like a mini beatstick of assassins and archoflagenlents.completementary CC ninjas (not that I had that list ready to play on sunday and failed to remember or anything)
Keep the shots.. change the ablatives balance.

killmaimburn wrote:

ruffian4 wrote:Right winger, Donald Campbell.

Swap him for newt gingrich , too much speed on the flanks will leave your midfield all on his lonesome soloing.

Jimi Hendrix alongside Bellafonte then?

Do you lot seem to be coming round to plasma?
It's my fave, ig and csm have lots lots.

Just for lols, instead of my relentless gun toting inquisitor or the vindicare, you could have an inquisitor with a conversion beamer who stopped infiltration, 1less D6 scatter when you fire template (dependant on level of allies might be handy).. for 75 points.
Reasoning:
blasts are better in 6th
If you can exploit skulls for other armies (e.g. leman russ) thats obeseeeeene.
Str8 ap4 is alright you just want him firing from one of the other pillboxes to not eggs in basket it.

Yes ruffian..plasma is back because it can shoot further now, because it gets a plus one damage because you can't hurt termies in close combat and must outshoot them- its worth the points dump they stuck on it 4 years back NOW . time to finish off those marines I gave up on half way through 5th.

Good points KMB, like I say it's a work in progress...

I was playing with it over lunch & came up with something on a radical tangent I didn't expect... I think this is a better list. However, better does not equal good!

1750 IG with SM allies:

HQ: CCS - 155
Lascannon, 2 x plasma gun
Chimera

HQ: Space Marine captain - 170
Artificer armour, jump pack, lightning claws (this guy is a bully, he'll hide behind tanks and pop out to slaughter a SM squad)

Elite: Dreadnought - 145
TL lascannon, heavy flamer

Troop: Veteran squad - 155
3 x melta gun
Chimera

Troop: Veteran squad - 155
3 x melta gun
Chimera

Troop: Veteran squad - 170
3 x plasma gun
Chimera

Troop: Veteran squad - 170
3 x plasma gun
Chimera

Troop: Tactical squad - 235
combi-plas, plasma gun, lascannon

Fast: Devil dog - 140
Multi-melta, smoke launchers

Fast: Hellhound - 135
Heavy flamer, smoke launchers

Heavy: Predator - 120
2 x lascannons

Loads of lascannons! Well, 5...

Only 10 vehicles, and no AV14. But I think by accident I've pulled out the 4+2!

The 4 (veterans) are supported by the captain, devil dog & hellhound. While the 2 (the tactical squad) sits back with the dread, CCS and predator. Am I getting the hang of this? No, probably not...

OK, now I'm getting into the allies groove.

This one, is actually good I think:

SM with IG allies 1750:

HQ: Librarian - 100
Dunno about powers or weapon...

HQ - CCS - 135
3 x melta guns, chimera

Elite - Dreadnought - 125
Rifleman

Elite - Dreadnought - 125
Rifleman

Troop - tactical squad - 275
10 man, combi plas, plas, lascannon
Razorback, lascannon/plas

Troop - tactical squad - 275
10 man, combi plas, plas, lascannon
Razorback, lascannon/plas

Troop - veteran squad - 170
3 x plasma gun, chimera

Troop - veteran squad - 170
3 x plasma gun, chimera

Fast - Land speeder - 70
MMHF

Fast - Land speeder - 70
MMHF

Heavy - Vindicator - 115

Heavy - Vindicator - 115

11 vehicles, 2 of which are speeders. The Vindicators I expect to take a pounding. Speeders are a bigger threat than the IG equivilent (devil dogs) while being cheaper.

I have the option to take ot the Vindicators for auto/las predators (with a small 5 point tweak) which may or may not be better, I'm not sure...

I'm happyish with this one.

Ljundhammer wrote:Nnnnnyahhhh. For Tau, I'd say allies are mandatory. Tau troops are pants, but elites & heavy are awesome. If you aren't spending points os suits & allied troops (or adding Tau suits to another army) I think they'll struggle...

Anyway, back to IG. I was on my sickbed yesterday thinking about Guard.

Here are my thoughts:
2) blobs are inefficent

"They aren't crap or useless as they do force the opponent to organise themselves capable of dealing with it, but they aren't the golden band of win they were before."Source Thinks we can't see him pretending he takes weak options
Anyhow this is turning into you and your guard lists thread.

markb wrote:Thought I'd dig my Tau out (when I can finally get back in the loft after my kitchen is built as its full of all the crap form there) and try a 6th ed list. Comments welcome.

HQ
Shas'el
Plasma rifle, missile pod, multi tracker, hard wired drone controller with 2 gun drones
107

Body Guard
2 XV8's with plasma rifles, missile pods and multi trackers

Elites
3 XV8s with plasma rifles, burst cannons, multi trackers and Shas'vre

Troops
2 x 10 Fire Warriors with photon grenades and Shas'ui
2 x 120

10 Fire Warriors with pulse carbines, photon grenades and Shas'ui
Devilfish
200

14 Kroot with Shaper and armour
141

Fast Attack
8 Path Finders with 2 rail rifles, photon grenades and Shas'ui
Devilfish
214

Heavy Support
Hammerhead with rail gun, burst cannons, multi tracker, target lock and blacksun filter
170

Sky Ray with smart m,issiles, multi tracker, targeting array and blacksun filter
165

2 XV88s with smart missiles, blacksun filters and team leader with hard wired drone controller and marker drone
181

Total - 1746

4 scoring units isn't a lot but with decent armour and defensive grenades should hold out for a while. I think bonding knives have lost their effectiveness in 6th as you always have a chance to rally so dropped them. My old tactic of giving the Fire Warrior Shas'uis target locks and marker lights won't work any more as the FAQs have nerfed infantry and battlesuit target locks and said they now have no effect, think this might b****r the Tau up a bit.

There is only 1 mission with killpoints in now, and none that punish troops (unlike the odd thing about fast and heavies)
Your paying 20 points for +1 leadership and its still the blurst in the game...

With absolutely no experience with tau, only the game I suggest minning them out and having them as seperates if 4 guys run off the table having lost 2 and failied a leadership test, boohoo now hit them with the other squads
the exception to this is if your buying the sargents night filters..faqed as night vision USR..you get to shoot the crap out of your opponent half the time even if your going second.. its THE biggy in 6th and for 3 points every unit should have it.

I don't like kroot, I used to with dogs, now I don't like them at all (post ork codex pretty much).

Don't take carbines on firewarriors
a) you don't want to assault anyone
b) range..more than you think range.. shoot once whilst falling back or doing a withering retreat.. (moving away from guys whilst plugging them).. and rapid fire is now half maximum range.. so you get to double tap at 15"s.. why hold out for 1 shot you might take rather than shooting all the time and shooting twice at 15"s AND responce snap fireing when charged

With the hit that low AV vehicles take in 6th I think you'll see less super pimped "warfish".. but its just rude not to give them disruption pods ( first turn night fight they are obscured + the +2 of nightfight.. they're not going down).. Multitracker meh.. BS 2 over snapshots isn't so hot.

Confused by your broadsides.. so you have 2, 1 of whom is upgraded to leader? or are you loads of points under.
Just my 2 cents as someone whose only played against them a handful of times.

I only have 2 Broadsides as they are the FW XV88-2s. The reason one is upgraded to a team leader is so he can have a hard wired drone controller so he can take the marker drone.

Afaik the blacksun filter for Fire Warriors only effects the team leader, it isn't conferred on to the rest of the unit, I may be wrong about that as I have only read the brb once and can't remember what it says in the Tau faqs. Its only 10 pts to upgrade to a Shas'ui, not 20.

I agree with you about the carbines, they have seriously lost their effectiveness since 5th ed but this army was put together and painted under 4th when they were a lot more useful. As it stands I only have the 3 squads of FWs so I have to stick with the carbines for now but I will probably get some more FWs and get them painted up or paint a load of rifle arms and swap them over. I suppose I could say that they are rifles for now though as there is no difference in points but I'm a bit of a stickler for wysiwyg. Its the same for the Kroot, I've never rated them either but they are a stand in unit until I get something to replace them, probably a 4th squad of FWs. They might suprise me though and be useful!

Im not sure about the Devilfish for the FWs either.

I had given the Hammerhead and Sky Ray disruption pods but thought that as they skimmers it might be better with the 5+ jink save as it does the same thing as the disruption pod if they move, hence the multi tracker so they fire as a fast vehicle.

markb wrote:Afaik the blacksun filter for Fire Warriors only effects the team leader, it isn't conferred on to the rest of the unit, I may be wrong about that as I have only read the brb once and can't remember what it says in the Tau faqs. Its only 10 pts to upgrade to a Shas'ui, not 20.

Night vision p 40, if at least one model in a unit....
Its Your comissar sneaky pants bump up
(oh and the faq says BSF= nightvision rule..nothing else on it)

Ok, will have to rearrange it then to give the FWs BSFs, thanks for the tip. Do you think I should keep the Devilfish for the FWs or drop it for something else? Would you think Piranhas are any good in this version or do you think I should take some XV25s?

Your asking the wrong person .. but hopefully if I keep talking someone else will join in and smack me down for teaching such wrongness.
The devilfish is handy,especially if your determined to field 'assault fire warriors' .Disruption pods, yes cover is less now, but everything stacks.. if you intend to have them on the table at the start 5+ with a additional 2 stacked makes them very survivable before you get the jink save working (of course you could/should? keep them in reserve, depends on how your army plays)

Stealth unit are odd, I've genuinely only ever faced them once early 5th late/4th, the change that they get +3 to any cover save is handy but 10 points per str5 bs3 shot only usable within assault range, doesn't blow my mind.

Piranha (from what I can see) appear to be hit on the head, first by the light armour is V easy to destroy edition, 2nd by only 2 hit points.. if you take him suggest fusion blaster and disruption pods. Treat it as an expensive version of the MM landspeeder suicide unit.
I'm trying to be constructive.. the codex is making it sound awfully negative though