I'm about to look these up myself, but thought I would ask what other people's take on them are. They came up in our big game last night, so I'm hoping for conformation of how we played it really

If a guy is shooting something and is within 2" of a guy touching the terrain/wall that is blocking more than 25% of the target, is the terrain negated or does it still give a cover save to target... My initial reaction was that this is some part of an older rule that no longer persists into 6th ed. All I can find in the RB anything near this is terrain types, defensive walls/barricades, which has something for assaulting purposes.

Second one was: A model stood in a ruin with a base on it, has no part of the ruin's walls covering it, the shooter can see 100% of the model, or even 24% of the model What save does the target get? And if it goes to ground, what increase does it get to its cover save, if any?

I won't answer the last one myself. I'll wait and see if you guys come up with the same as me.

1) if the target is obscured by terrain from the firers los it gets a save. p 18 determining cover saves
2) the base of a ruin counts as area terrain, so its a 5+ save for standing in it. The going to ground bonus is +2. p98 Ruins with bases, p91 area terrain, last bolded paragraph.

Angelwing has it in both cases.

kool ok so you both agree with me awseomeness abound. DL needs to position his DS'ers a little more carefully now

was only a quick friendly though, but next time....

Why no one has said that you give a cover save to your enemy if shoot out of the edge of the terrain you are standing in.

I think you may be thinking of 5th edition rules there. In 6th edition, I don't believe you get a cover save if the attacker is firing out of the edge of area terrain.
It is only shooting through a forest that gives the target unit a cover save. In that case, I would think that the model's base would have to be completely within the forest for the target to get a cover save.

Yep that was what I tried to tell King, though I hadn't realised at the time that you don't even have to to be at the edge of the terrain anymore.

I'm confused. You don't have to be at the edge of the terrain for what? Are you talking about getting or giving a cover save?

Can you be more specific with what was occurring? Where the target and firing units were?

Sure let me draw you a picture: lol



now the Dark Angels were Blood Angels
and the ML was a melta..
and the speeder was a DE Raider..
and they had DS into that position... none of which has a bearing on the question:

which is: does ruin give the skimmer a cover save?

It looks to me like the speeder is more than 25% hidden by the wall section for the 2 right hand models, less than 25% for the 2 right hand models.

So the issue is, is more than 25% hidden from the point of view of the melta guy? It looks to me like it is, but I would have to see it IRL to be sure.

If it is more than 25% hidden, then the skimmer is obscured and since it is a cover save from being obscured by a ruin, it would be a 4+ cover save.

so the positioning of the guys on the area terrain base of the ruin don't negate it, that was the issue????

The only thing the positioning of the models in the area terrain changes, is whether or not 25% of the vehicle is hidden from view.

If you look at the pictures on the bottom of page 75, in picture 2 more than 25% of the rhino is hidden behind the wall of the ruin. The rules say:

Picture 2: More than 25% of the front of the Space Marine Rhino is hidden by the ruin - the Rhino is obscured and will receive4+cover save from the ruin.

So in your picture, it doesn't matter where the base of the ruin the firers are standing, which is in the area terrain, the key point is if more than 25% of the skimmer is hidden from the majority of the firing models by a part of the ruin, it gets the 4+ cover save.

I think we understand you there TW, yes 25%, but again that wasn't the question we were asking about. We have assumed, both parties that under normal circumstances, the vehicle is 25%+ covered. What we now want to know is the guy shooting the melta (ML in the picture) not giving the skimmer a cover save, even though more than 25% is covered, due to his relation to the guy 2" in front of him touching the wall of the ruin.... ta dar!! hopefully that hit the spot

Well, members of your own unit do not count for LOS or giving cover saves.

The cover save is based on the majority of the models in the unit.

KInG wrote:What we now want to know is the guy shooting the melta (ML in the picture) not giving the skimmer a cover save.... due to his relation to the guy 2" in front of him touching the wall of the ruin

wall.. ??? lol

Come one, you're winding me up, is my English that bad.

If you now read the original question in OP maybe you might have it

No, your english is fine, mine is probably a bit off!

The fact that they guy with the melta is within 2" of a guy touching the wall, or even touching the wall himself, has no effect on his shooting.

In the picture, if the skimmer is 25% hidden from the majority of the unit it is hidden.

And since it is hidden by the wall of the ruin, it gets a 4+ cover save.

This save is taken again every shot from the unit, regardless of their position within the ruin.

Unless I'm still confusing something.

no I think we are there now

1. Just to expand on this though for others. Does this happen even if the other potential shooters can't pen the vehicle.

2. And what happens if the player declares he will only shoot the melta.

And another cover save question just came up... Look out sir wounds put onto the nearest model to the character can be placed on models out of range and line of sight. What if the guy is stood in cover and the character wasn't?

KInG wrote: no I think we are there now

1. Just to expand on this though for others. Does this happen even if the other potential shooters can't pen the vehicle.

No. [quote=Main Rulebook Page 74, bullet point on bottom right page"]If a unit is firing at a vehicle, the vehicle is obscured only if it is 25% hidden from the majority of the firing models that are able to damage the vehicle.[/quote] {emphasis mine}

KInG wrote:2. And what happens if the player declares he will only shoot the melta.

Would be the same as above because cover saves depend on LOS from the firers or the firing models.

KInG wrote:And another cover save question just came up... Look out sir wounds put onto the nearest model to the character can be placed on models out of range and line of sight. What if the guy is stood in cover and the character wasn't?

Then the guy would get a cover save even if the character was not in cover.

Normally, you roll to hit, roll to wound, allocate wounds, and roll saves.

Same for "Look Out, Sir" You roll to hit and wound, you allocate a hit against the character, you roll for "Look Out, Sir", it's successful, you then allocate that wound to another model, then resolve the wound against that model taking any applicable saves.

you seem to have that one covered straight off this time TW n1 thanks

My pleasure mate!

right:
p74 vehicles and cover - obscured targets
if a unit is firing at a vehicle, the vehicle is obscured only if it is 25% hidden from the majority of the firing models that are able to damage the vehicle.

in the picture, i would say yes to a cover save as only one guy is able to see the whole thing (guy at window).

also note the last part of the rule. eg if a bolter squad with one missile in it shoots at a landraider, you only determine cover save from the point of view of the missile launcher, not the majority of the unit.


Please also note p18 determining cover saves.

For shooting at non vehicle models, you need to be obscured 25% from the los of only 1 model in the shooting unit.

eg. 5 marines are shooting an ork boy. 4 marines can see him 100%. One marine can only see 75% of the ork boys body. The ork boy gets a cover save from all wounds allocated to him from that marine unit.

Good points AW.

And if a unit is 3" into area terrain woods. They fire out at guys in the open and nothing else between them, do they get a save?

Do they get one is I'm 2" in or even 1" in. Or do I have to be hanging out the terrain to negotiate the terrain I'm in..

this 1", 2" or 3" stuff got thrown in the bin thankfully. You just need to get your eyes down and check the LoS.
If the area terrain they are standing in is blocking view to the target then the target could well be entitled to a cover save, check the book for which save.

If the area terrain is flat (eg a swamp) the target unit isn't likely to be obscured in any fashion, so no cover save. However: if the target unit shoots back, the unit standing in the flat area terrain gets a cover save even if they can be seen 100%, because its area terrain they are in.

Finally, if in any doubt, give the cover save. Perhaps split the difference eg a contested 5+ cover save could be compromised as a 6+ instead. All this mucking about checking each firing models line of sight, getting eyes poked out on sharp terrain and bickering over 'is the body 25% obscured or not?' gets on my wick. I'd rather just play the game.

KInG wrote:Good points AW.

And if a unit is 3" into area terrain woods. They fire out at guys in the open and nothing else between them, do they get a save?

Do they get one is I'm 2" in or even 1" in. Or do I have to be hanging out the terrain to negotiate the terrain I'm in..

As Angelwing said, you don't have to measure how far into the terrain anyone is anymore.

As for a unit firing from within the woods,

Main Rulebook page 102 'Cover Save' wrote:Similarly,if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest (because they're shooting at a model beyond the forest) then the model being shot benefits from a 5+ cover save.

So if any of the models are in the forest and trace LOS through the forest, the target unit gets the save, even if they're in the open. If all the models in the firing unit were just touching the forest and not firing through it, the target unit would not get a save.

This would also apply if both units were in the open but a model in the firing unit traced LOS across (which would be through) the forest.

KInG wrote:Good points AW.

And if a unit is 3" into area terrain woods. They fire out at guys in the open and nothing else between them, do they get a save?

Do they get one is I'm 2" in or even 1" in. Or do I have to be hanging out the terrain to negotiate the terrain I'm in..

I think if they are 'in' the terrain there is no penalty for shooting out. Maybe there is if they are inside by a certain distance, not sure.