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Necron WBB clarified

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Necron WBB clarified

Postby timewizard » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:33 am

This is not quite a rules question, more of a clarification.

Playing against Necrons for the first time next week, and after reading the codex, and Q&A on a variety of forums, is the following correct?

NECRON WBB FLOWCHART

Necron model (except Necron Lord) is destroyed
A-Is it's unit within 6” of a Res Orb on the table (Lord is equipped and “alive”)?
Yes-Lay model on its side to await WBB
No-Go to B

B-Was it destroyed by a weapon where S(weapon) >=2XT(model)?
Yes-Remove model
No-Go to C

C-Was it destroyed by a CC that allows no armor save?
Yes-Remove model
No- Lay model on its side to await WBB

Necron player's turn

D-Is there another model of the same type within 6”?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Go to E

E-Is there a Tomb Spyder within 12” and a model of the same type on the table?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Remove model

F-Did model pass WBB?
Yes-Place model with closest unit of same type
No-Go to G
G-Will the model’s unit teleport through a Monolith in movement phase?
Yes-Model may re-roll WBB as it emerges
No-Remove model


I am trying to simplify the process so that the game doesn't bog down every turn. Does this look correct, am I missing anything? Bear in mind that I know the Necron Lord is treated differently. I appreciate any input.

Thanks!

Edited - Errors corrected - 2nd edit, add monolith
Last edited by timewizard on Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby jlong05 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:37 am

Looks correct to me. GW may have been helpful by including that flow chart in the Necron codex.
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Re: Necron WBB clarified

Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:15 am

timewizard wrote: NECRON WBB FLOWCHART

Necron model (except Necron Lord) is destroyed
A-Is it within 6” of a Res Orb on the table (Lord is equipped and “alive”)?
Yes-Lay model on its side to await WBB
No-Go to B

not quite: the model only needs to be part of the same unit as a model within 6" of a Res Orb - it doesnt actually have to be within 6" of it itself (Res Orb rules, p15 of the codex).

timewizard wrote:B-Was it destroyed by a weapon where ST(weapon) >=T(model)?
Yes-Remove model
No-Go to C

"ST" should be "S" or "Str". and it needs to be >= 2xT(model). ;)

timewizard wrote:C-Was it destroyed by a CCW that allows no armor save?
Yes-Remove model
No- Lay model on its side to await WBB

"CCW" is over-specific: "CC attack" will do (that will cover weird things that arent actually weapons per-se). :)

timewizard wrote:I am trying to simplify the process so that the game doesn't bog down every turn. Does this look correct, am I missing anything? Bear in mind that I know the Necron Lord is treated differently. I appreciate any input.

hope that helps :)

as to the Lord, the first section applies to him as normal (although you may want to change A to "is the model within 6" of a Res Orb/is the model a Necron Lord with Res Orb") - then when you get to the Necron Turn section, ask "Is the model a Necron Lord?": "Yes = Roll WBB" (link to F), "No = go to D". hows that?

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Postby timewizard » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:12 am

Helps quite a bit! I'll update and clean it up. 8)
Many thanks, I plan on keeping this page handy during play. Should help.

@jlong05-I agree that they should. WBB is convoluted enough, it jumps from condition to condition. I was trying to put it in some sort of logical sequence.

@Lord Malek, Thanks again Tim, you are truly the 'Ochams Razor' of the 40K universe :wink:
Last edited by timewizard on Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jlong05 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:46 am

timewizard wrote:@jlong05-I agree that they should. WBB is convoluted enough, it jumps from condition to condition. I was trying to put it in some sort of logical sequence.


I think the confusion part is probably the best reason to just do away with WBB in 4e and instead have all Necrons use FNP. This is the rumored change for the next Codex, we will have to see if it becomes true. I would welcome it as it would speed up the game play, however it would make the Necrons a bit harder to kill as they would essentially get double saves right off, instead of waiting till the next turn and then taking measurements.

Just my thoughts on this though.
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:46 pm

timewizard wrote:@Lord Malek, Thanks again Tim, you are truly the 'Ochams Razor' of the 40K universe :wink:

glad to help :)

jlong05 wrote:I think the confusion part is probably the best reason to just do away with WBB in 4e and instead have all Necrons use FNP. This is the rumored change for the next Codex, we will have to see if it becomes true. I would welcome it as it would speed up the game play, however it would make the Necrons a bit harder to kill as they would essentially get double saves right off, instead of waiting till the next turn and then taking measurements.

it will be a double edged sword, though: right now no matter how much firepower you pump into a squad, statistically you only get to wipe half of them out (assuming they get WBB), as once they are laying down you cant hurt them - they get to 'hide' as debris until the start of the next turn, and excess shots/wounds are wasted. however, with FnP the survivors are kept standing, allowing you to keep shooting at a squad until you wipe it out for good.

will be interesting to see how things pan out (i might even get my Necrons out of retirement and finish building them all...).

cheers :)

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Postby DoctorTom » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:43 pm

The one other thing I could see including on the flowchart is at the end. Instead of a remove, ask if there is a Monolith that could teleport the unit and allow those that failed their WBB roll a second chance.
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Postby timewizard » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:52 pm

Good point! I remembered the Lord and the Spyder but forgot about the Monolith. Give me a day or so and I'll work it into the matrix. Nice catch, thanks!
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Postby pointblank » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:40 am

Small problem with the flow chart: the first part includes a nearby Orb which isn't even necessary under normal conditions.

There's also a few odd factors that need to be considered: "like" units falling back to within range of downed models.

-- for example a player has two squads of three Wraiths. One of them is completely eliminated via shooting ( all three models placed on their side ). The other unit loses one model + morale test. The unit falls back "x" inches. At the start of the necron player's turn - the squad of Wraiths are within six inches of the downed unit: those models are now entitled to make WBB rolls.

Its important to note that downed models are not removed until they fail their WBB rolls. Even models that are damaged ( and unprotected ) by WBB denying sources are still placed on their side - situation during the player's WBB stage is that they would not be eligible, thus then removed.
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Postby pointblank » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:42 am

timewizard wrote:"...@Lord Malek, Thanks again Tim, you are truly the 'Ochams Razor' of the 40K universe :wink: ..."


Oh please :roll:

Tim's approach to 40K is the furthest from any direction to Ockham's Razor.
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Postby Spack » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:24 am

pointblank wrote:
timewizard wrote:"...@Lord Malek, Thanks again Tim, you are truly the 'Ochams Razor' of the 40K universe :wink: ..."


Oh please :roll:

Tim's approach to 40K is the furthest from any direction to Ockham's Razor.


How did you come to that conclusion? Given that Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor is to make as few assumptions as possible (and as Tim always looks at the RaW, almost always no assumptions are being used) it seems to fit pretty well. The paraphrasing of "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best" doesn't mean that a complex solution isn't right - what it means is that if you have multiple solutions, then the one with the least assumptions (and therefore least possibility of error) is the one that is likely the best solution. A lot of people seem to read the paraphrasing at face value and assume what appears simple is the best - they forget that it actually isn't what Occam's Razor states.
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Postby Niknokitueu » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:19 am

pointblank wrote:Its important to note that downed models are not removed until they fail their WBB rolls. Even models that are damaged ( and unprotected ) by WBB denying sources are still placed on their side - situation during the player's WBB stage is that they would not be eligible, thus then removed.

I personally find fault with this.
It may well ahere more closely to the idea behind WBB, but it complicates an otherwise clear issue.
If you leave models on the table when they are not and cannot ever be eligible for WBB, you need to note them separately from models that could WBB if they satisfy the 'like model' conditions.

Remember that the Necron FAQ tells you to work out the effect of the Lord's Orb at the time the wound is inflicted, further removing the need to keep 'non-WBB eligible' models on the table.

Otherwise you may as well argue to keep all downed necrons on the table until after all your monoliths have finished moving... a futher messy complication.

The easiest game flow is:
Model becomes a casualty. Has it been downed by a WBB-denying attack? If so, remove unless there is an active orb within range.

At start of turn, remove models that are not eligible for WBB. Roll for models that are eligible. When monoliths have moved, remove remaining downed models.

Have Fun!
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ps. FNP will not solve necron problems in and of itself. In my BA army, I normally had 10 FNP models, that would easily survive the close-range output of over a thousand points of Tau shooting. Imagine an army of 60 of these models, and few armies will stand a chance against them.
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Postby pointblank » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:40 am

Niknokitueu wrote:The easiest game flow is:
Model becomes a casualty. Has it been downed by a WBB-denying attack? If so, remove unless there is an active orb within range.


But that isn't the rule, is it ?

Niknokitueu wrote:At start of turn, remove models that are not eligible for WBB. Roll for models that are eligible. When monoliths have moved, remove remaining downed models.


"...remove models that are not eligible for WBB..."

Right, including ones damaged by a WBB-denying source. As for remove models after Lith movement, that would prevent the use of the Power Matrix for a second WBB roll.
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Postby Niknokitueu » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:36 pm

pointblank wrote:
Niknokitueu wrote:The easiest game flow is:
Model becomes a casualty. Has it been downed by a WBB-denying attack? If so, remove unless there is an active orb within range.


But that isn't the rule, is it ?

You mean, it isn't the actual stated rule, as written, when the rule was written in such a complicated manner as to cause at least one "How do I do WBB" question a week on WarSeer? Well, no. It is not the RaW, but as it turns out it is how the rule works out in-game (due to the way the codex FAQ interacts with the codex rule), and is a lot less complicated than keeping a note of which models can or cannot gain an eligibility for a WBB attempt.
pointblank wrote:
Niknokitueu wrote:At start of turn, remove models that are not eligible for WBB. Roll for models that are eligible. When monoliths have moved, remove remaining downed models.


"...remove models that are not eligible for WBB..."

Right, including ones damaged by a WBB-denying source. As for remove models after Lith movement, that would prevent the use of the Power Matrix for a second WBB roll.

You mean the power matix ability that functions during the movement phase? Well, after each 'lith has moved, you cannot use the 'lith again during the movement phase, so cannot then choose to teleport a squad. When the last 'lith has moved, and you have decided whether to use it's ability, then the remaining necrons cannot be 'ported for another WBB attempt, so can be removed.

Edit: Oopsie, I just realised what you were probably getting at. By stating 'end of a liths movement' I meant having completed everything you are doing with a 'lith during it's movement phase. You can, of course, move the 'lith and then 'port a unit through it, you just cannot move a 'lith, move another unit, go back to that 'lith and then 'port a unit through it. Once you have finished with a unit, you cannot go back to it during the movement phase. If you thought I meant that you could not 'port a unit through a 'lith after moving the 'lith, then I apologise for my lack of clarity.

The easiest way to play a game such that after a turn's moving, firing, assaults, WBB etc we have exactly the same effect as is written in a combination of the codex and FAQ is to follow my flowchart as stated above.

Model becomes a casualty. Has it been downed by a WBB-denying attack? If so, remove unless there is an active orb within range.

At start of turn, remove models that are not eligible for WBB. Roll for models that are eligible. When monoliths have moved, remove remaining downed models.


Have Fun!
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Postby LordMalekTheRedKnight » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:53 pm

I split the off topic post into its own thread:

http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php? ... pic&p=5701

lets try and keep this thread on topic (WBB).

cheers :)

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