cheers mate. i thought it was following the rule to change the colour word that way, i was just worried that the resulting sentence wouldnt make sense (the "both" part).

right now its me using Glamerdye(see the PackWarsthread), but soon it will be Kate's, as it will be finding a spot in her proper deck, so its good to know exactly what its capable of.

something i hadnt realised is that it can affect spells as well as permanents. this means, if ive got it right, that it could be played on a spell that has been played but is waiting to resolve (as a response)?

(if so, that opens up even more possibilities for its use)

cheers

~ Tim

The rule wording might be a little odd, but the spell would qualify as being both red and red.

Yes, Glamerdye could be put on the stack. Colour changing spells have long been an amusement to me. Someone tries to play Terror on a non-Black creature, Glamerdye changes Black in Terror's rules to the colour of the target creature, and when Terror resolves, it fizzles. There are many such possibilities.

Culven wrote:The rule wording might be a little odd, but the spell would qualify as being both red and red.

cheers

Culven wrote:Yes, Glamerdye could be put on the stack. ... There are many such possibilities.

heh.

no wait... im the one going to be facing it!

another question, but not a rules one (for a change)...

so far, all the foil cards we have bought are warped: when laid face down they arch upwards, making it obvious that they are foils. this is true even when they are in the middle of the deck. does this happen to everyone? any suggestions to fixing it (it can spoil the game sometimes, as it makes it obvious what your opponent is going to draw next) - should we just put them under some heavy books overnight or try something else?

also, i am in the process of installing MTG Online. not sure if it will play on my PC without crashing it, but if i get it working i will post my ID here (to start with i will try the free trial, and then i will sign up using the code in my Starter Set with a proper ID). does anyone here play online?

cheers

~ Tim

The foils arch due to different rates of expansion for the cardstock and the refractive foil plastic layer. Temperature and humidity can both cause this. There is no way to permanently fix the cards. The only fair solution is to put the cards in sleeves, then it will be more difficult to tell which card is which.

I don't play Magic online only because when I buy Magic cards, I want to have the actual cards. I also prefer the more social atmosphere of my FLGS.

Culven wrote:The foils arch due to different rates of expansion for the cardstock and the refractive foil plastic layer. Temperature and humidity can both cause this. There is no way to permanently fix the cards.

poo.

Culven wrote:The only fair solution is to put the cards in sleeves, then it will be more difficult to tell which card is which.

we did this when we played Pokemon. problem we found was that the sleeves had quite sharp corners.

plus you dont get to see the artwork on the back of the cards (just the plain sleeves)...

we will probably try some heavy books first and see how it goes.

Culven wrote:I don't play Magic online only because when I buy Magic cards, I want to have the actual cards. I also prefer the more social atmosphere of my FLGS.

well you get online versions of the contents of the starter pack for free with the code from the pack (apparantly - i am still downloading files, @98% complete). im hoping to register a few different codes (from the free starter sets) and then trade cards between them to build a more useable deck (i will of course check that trading between your accounts is allowed first).

plus there is the possibility of trading for other cards online too.

the trial server is free, too (downside is it kicks you after 2 hrs, gives you a randomly generated user name, and only has the 10th ed starter, IIRC).

might be worth a few of us signing up anyway for some international games.
(unfortunately, its highly unlikely that i will ever be able to pop in at your store for a game )

~ Tim

I may need to look into this, if it is free. Which product is it that grants all of these wonderful hours of free online M:TG?

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1017771

see question 1.2.

EDIT: see 1.13 - seems the "free trial" isnt yet active. you could still play for free using the activation code in the starter set though.

mine download and install has just finished... going to see if i can get it to run.

EDIT: its running, and giving me the option of the free trial, while also telling me that the server is down to move to the new version. looks like i have the old version (v2) and i am now thoroughly confused...

EDIT2: i am playing now! (free trial)

~ Tim

Dan and i have been having some great games Online (well, i thought they were great... although i didnt do very well in most of them ) - see my last post. anyone else interested in playing?

also, ive got another timing question that i hope someone can help with:

I have a number of creatures in play (all untapped for the sake of simplicity), including Merrow Bonegnawer. its Kate's turn, and she is attacking with all her creatures, which include Necroskitter.

there are 2 related questions, but i think once you answer one it will answer the other...

lets say i block Necroskitter with one of my cards. my creature deals enough damage to it to kill it, and it deals some damage to my creature in the form of a -1/-1 counter (wither), which is also enough to kill it. both cards go into their respective owner's graveyards. does Kate get to put my dead creature into play due to Necroskitter's rule, or does the fact that both creatures are going into the graveyard at the same time mean that it cant be in play to use its rule by the time the creature with the -1/-1 counter on it is put in my graveyward in the first place?

the second question: if i was also blocking with Merrow Bonegnawer, and he was dealt enough damage to kill him, could i tap him to remove my creature that died blocking Necroskitter from my graveyard? (in order to prevent Necroskitter giving my creature to Kate)
just to clarify, both Merrow Bonegnawer and the creature i want to remove from play are being killed at the same time (no First Strike damage involved).

would the answer change if i used Merrow Bonegnawer's ability before damage was dealt (so that it went onto the stack below the damage step, meaning that the creatures killed by the damage would be in the graveyard before we resovled his ability)?

is so, what about Necroskitter?

hope this wasnt too confusing (had us both scratching our heads, so we decided to err on the side of caution and say neither rule could be used by the creatures going into the graveyard to affect creatures being put into the graveyard at the same time as they are)

cheers in advance!

~ Tim
p.s. im sure i read an official ruling on gather (or somewhere else) for a different card (cant remember what it was now) that said something to the effect of "it sees itself in the graveyard". not sure if this is relevant (since i cant remember what the card was)...

Damage is also done at the samew time (first strike damage is all done at one time and regular damager is done later). When creatures receive lethal damage, they immediately go to the graveyard without time for instants. The Necroskitter's ability is a triggered ability, which can only be added to the stack if the Necroskitter is in play and after the target hits the graveyard. The Bonegnawer ability would need to be played, either before or after combat damage. So, it would go on the pre-damage stack or the post damage stack.

I hope that helps explain.

Culven wrote:The Necroskitter's ability is a triggered ability, which can only be added to the stack if the Necroskitter is in play and after the target hits the graveyard.

thought so - cheers for the confirmation.

Culven wrote:The Bonegnawer ability would need to be played, either before or after combat damage. So, it would go on the pre-damage stack or the post damage stack.

is it possible for creatures killed at the same time as the Bonegnawer to be removed from play by the Bonegnawer's ability? (if so, how would it be done?)

could its ability end up effecting itself?

for example, if i block with him (while he is untapped) knowing he is going to die, but use his ability to stop himself being raised from my graveyard to fight for my opponent (who has Necroskitter or something similar in play)?

or say both Bonegnawer and a creature with Persist (and no -1/-1 counters yet on it) die at the same time? could my opponent pick the creature with persist?

if he dies immediately after taking lethal damage, then i cant activate his ability as a response to the damage, can i? and if i activate it before damage is dealth, then will the damage even end up on the same stack (or will his ability resolve first)?



cheers again mate - a great help as always

~ Tim

The bonegnawer couldn't target itself as it isn't a legal time when its ability is used. By the time it could be a legal target, it isn't in play so the ability couldn't be used.

You are correct in that its ability cannot be acivated in response to the lethal damage. The only time before damage is deal that it could be used is in the step before damage is dealt.

also, damage doesn't go on the stack. The source of the damage would be on the stack (if it is a spell or ability), but once the source of the damage assigns it, it is dealt immediately unless it was prevented by something which resolved earlier.

Culven wrote:The bonegnawer couldn't target itself as it isn't a legal time when its ability is used. By the time it could be a legal target, it isn't in play so the ability couldn't be used.

just to clarify: the 'target' for the bonegnawer's ability is a player (who chooses a card from his/her graveyard to remove) not a card. surely i could be a legal target at this time?

Culven wrote:You are correct in that its ability cannot be acivated in response to the lethal damage. The only time before damage is deal that it could be used is in the step before damage is dealt.

so combat damage cant put him in the graveyard before his ability resolves.

oh well - guess i will have to not block with him when i want to use his ability.

as an aside, if i used his ability and my opponent responded with a spell/ability that would kill him (rather than using combat damage), then in that case i could remove him from my graveyard using his ability, right?
(his ability goes on the bottom of the stack, the spell that kills him goes on top and is resolved first, so by the time i resolve his ability he is in my graveyard so i can remove him)

Culven wrote:also, damage doesn't go on the stack. The source of the damage would be on the stack (if it is a spell or ability), but once the source of the damage assigns it, it is dealt immediately unless it was prevented by something which resolved earlier.

my 9th ed rulebook says (under "Combat Damage Step" - p34):
"Once players figure out how their creatures' damage will be dealt, combat damage for all creatures goes on the stack.
...
After combat damage goes on the stack, players can play instants and activated abilities."

this does seem to imply to me that i could use the Bonegnawer's ability at this point, putting it on the stack after (i.e. above) the combat damage, allowing it to be resolved first, before the Bonegnawer is killed. of course, at the time it is resolved the Bonegnawer isnt in my graveyard yet (neither are the other creatures being killed at the same time as him), so i dont get to achieve what i wanted to anyway.

so far i have identified a few uses for this ability - stopping:
- Persist
- Necroskitter
- Retrace

can you think of any others?

also, what about rules that count cards (or mana symbols etc) in a graveyard? if i used the ability in response to one of those, would it have an effect? or would the count be made at the time the spell/ability was played, rather than when it was resolved?

what about cards like Tilling Treefolk? if i used Bonegnawer's ability to target Tilling Treefolk's owning player as a repsonse to it being played, how would that work (assume the player had very few cards in their graveyard)?

cheers again mate

~ Tim

Oops, my bad. I thought that Bonegnawer targeted a card in a graveyard. The damage being on the stack changes things too. I think I was mistaken with what I told you. However, I still think that Bonegnawer won't be able to remove itself. I can't think of a way to get it on the stack before combat damage. I believe that damage going on the stack is the first thing to happen during that step of combat. So, playing the ability in response will put it on the stack after the damage, so it will resolve before the Bonegnawer is dealt damage. If the ability was played before damage assignment, then I think it will resolve before damage, so the Bonegnawer would still be in play at the time.

Since the Bonegnawer doesn't target a card, it isn't as useful to counter certain cards, such as retrace, unless that is the only card in the graveyard. Also, if you try using it in response to retrace, I think that the discarded land would be available for removal. Also, if it is in response to the retrace ability, then the spell should already be on the stack so it wouldn't prevent the spell from being cast.

Culven wrote:Oops, my bad.

hey no worries mate.

Culven wrote:However, I still think that Bonegnawer won't be able to remove itself. I can't think of a way to get it on the stack before combat damage.

agreed.

Culven wrote:Since the Bonegnawer doesn't target a card, it isn't as useful to counter certain cards, such as retrace, unless that is the only card in the graveyard.

yeah - it would only help if they had no other cards to discard... or if i had several Bonegnawers in play.

Culven wrote:Also, if you try using it in response to retrace, I think that the discarded land would be available for removal.

ahh yes.

Culven wrote:Also, if it is in response to the retrace ability, then the spell should already be on the stack so it wouldn't prevent the spell from being cast.

poo. thats one less thing it might possibly be useful for.

the best way to use it, in a sense, is to target yourself, as then you get to chose the card to discard. but i cant think of many cases when you would want to do that... (Necroskitter is the only one i have encountered so far, and that will be going in our black deck when we get one along with Bonegnawer anyway).

cheers though

in other news, after playing with (and against) the 10th ed themedecks online, i have suggested to Kate that we collect them. I have bought Arcanis's Guileand put it by to give to Kate for her birthday (early Jan), and my mum has put by Kamahl's Temper for us for Xmas.

since opening our last pair of boosters (which we are still using for Pack Wars), we now have enough Black cards to make a proper Black deck if we buy Evincar's Tyranny. this will allow us to use all 5 colours in our games.
i think i will probably pick this up next week instead of buying boosters (our local store has run out of both Eventide and Shadowmoor boosters, and doesnt know when the supplier will have any more either).

looks like we are in for a Magical holiday.

~ Tim

There are some situations in which removing cards from a player's graveyard could be useful; though, most will require doing so multiple times to either remove a specific card or reduce the number of cards in the graveyard.